Resignation/hire ratio
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Resignation/hire ratio
Thought I heard a person in the know say that with the present spike in resignations the system could go into a crewing deficit with the new aircraft coming. T or F? Who is leaving and from which fleets? Must have my head in the sand
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well, many going to Oasis or in Fact gone already, about 7 from the classic so far (2/3 check/trainers, 1 line cn and 4 F/O's) quite a few from -400 Freighter (CN & F/O) as the freighter salaries are insufficient to A) make anyone take a freighter command or B) Stay with CX.................
Of course about 40 in the "Pool" at UPS some gone already, some waiting for course dates. Many US Based guys don't like the Check & training system so are accepting recalls to legacy carriers, and of course Fedex are recruiting as well..................
Interestingly Mr .R, on his recent fact finding tour of NA stated that "Fedex and UPS are not our competition"...................
well, wake up Mr.R if those are the carriers taking your expensively trained pilots, I guess that makes them your competition !!!! so whilst CX needs to increase it's pilot force, rumour has it the pilot population is shrinking due to the turnaround in the market.......................
Of course about 40 in the "Pool" at UPS some gone already, some waiting for course dates. Many US Based guys don't like the Check & training system so are accepting recalls to legacy carriers, and of course Fedex are recruiting as well..................
Interestingly Mr .R, on his recent fact finding tour of NA stated that "Fedex and UPS are not our competition"...................
well, wake up Mr.R if those are the carriers taking your expensively trained pilots, I guess that makes them your competition !!!! so whilst CX needs to increase it's pilot force, rumour has it the pilot population is shrinking due to the turnaround in the market.......................
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Mr R
Yeah and Mr R was quoted as saying he is happy that our T & Cs are at market value.....doesnt bade well for pay rise talks.....oh hang on, thats what we call bluffing!!!!
Next will come the, "we have to be carefull about LCCs, cost base, RPKs etc etc"
Translated = we have to protect our director's bonuses!
Next will come the, "we have to be carefull about LCCs, cost base, RPKs etc etc"
Translated = we have to protect our director's bonuses!
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doesnt bade well for pay rise talks
Bottom line...CX as a corporation has no respect for it's employees and it's employees has no respect for them. A sad state created by senior management.
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yeah yeah
Hostile i share your thoughts.
However, i think that our saving grace will be the amount of choices out there for pilots in the near future. I too get frustrated that we are our own worst enemies but i think that with choice comes action. In the recent past, pilots havent lifted a finger to help themselves because what options were there. Hopefully now pilots will be able to say, "sorry not good enough, i'm off!" But then i have had a couple of wines so maybe......
However, i think that our saving grace will be the amount of choices out there for pilots in the near future. I too get frustrated that we are our own worst enemies but i think that with choice comes action. In the recent past, pilots havent lifted a finger to help themselves because what options were there. Hopefully now pilots will be able to say, "sorry not good enough, i'm off!" But then i have had a couple of wines so maybe......
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Don’t think many will say I’m off. Their balls are sucked up so far, some are using them as eyeballs. But then again, I’ve had a couple of wines.
We tried action in 99 and 01. Only people that won were those that got CX shares at $7.47. We all know what happened after that. Must be doing quite well now.
We are our own worst enemy because we don’t think as a group, its all individuals. Don’t think people look at the big picture stuff.
We tried action in 99 and 01. Only people that won were those that got CX shares at $7.47. We all know what happened after that. Must be doing quite well now.
We are our own worst enemy because we don’t think as a group, its all individuals. Don’t think people look at the big picture stuff.
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sizematters, I take the point that Oasis are hiring, but the "many going to Oasis" is relative. If 40 go, that is 2% of the pilot workforce, which can easily be absorbed by scheduling.
The Freighter case is more serious, which explains why NR went to ANC to get the grassroots opinions. Not only are we losing pilots from the section that we have the most difficulty in staffing, but established pilots now have a better offer. And they will continue to have one, now that we are seen as a training organisation for American carriers.
As you probably know, a group of airlines, of which CX is one, have regular HR/FLTOPS meetings to do the management equivalent of the "Terms and Endearment" forum here. Obviously the American carriers cannot attend for anti-trust reasons, but you can be sure that they get the minutes.
The answer is the one that was used in previous pilot shortages, albeit many years ago. You simply change the admission requirements. As an example, an airline can operate wide body jets with 200 hour propjet guys in the right hand seat and 1,500/300 jet in the left. It's not pretty but it works, and people still fly on airlines that have had hull losses. Many LOCO/Zero service airlines do this already. Get the right people into the management of your airline, and they will accept it.
The most powerful productivity tool of management is to reduce the professionalism of pilots into a staff commodity. That is what we as pilots have to resist.
The Freighter case is more serious, which explains why NR went to ANC to get the grassroots opinions. Not only are we losing pilots from the section that we have the most difficulty in staffing, but established pilots now have a better offer. And they will continue to have one, now that we are seen as a training organisation for American carriers.
As you probably know, a group of airlines, of which CX is one, have regular HR/FLTOPS meetings to do the management equivalent of the "Terms and Endearment" forum here. Obviously the American carriers cannot attend for anti-trust reasons, but you can be sure that they get the minutes.
The answer is the one that was used in previous pilot shortages, albeit many years ago. You simply change the admission requirements. As an example, an airline can operate wide body jets with 200 hour propjet guys in the right hand seat and 1,500/300 jet in the left. It's not pretty but it works, and people still fly on airlines that have had hull losses. Many LOCO/Zero service airlines do this already. Get the right people into the management of your airline, and they will accept it.
The most powerful productivity tool of management is to reduce the professionalism of pilots into a staff commodity. That is what we as pilots have to resist.
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And don't forget, over the last forty years , just when pilots thought the pendulum was swinging their way a 'major' went bust and deposited several hundred highly qualified pilots on the market, shortage, (and negotiating advantage), over.
CX, like most of the major carriers, have never had recruiting problems, when it is a pilots market they still get to choose who they want as the major carriers are always in demand, when it is an employers market they just choose who they want.
The idea that the end is nigh etc. for major carriers where employment of pilots is concerned is just wishful thinking, it is the lower echelons of aviation that will suffer, always was, always will be.
CX, like most of the major carriers, have never had recruiting problems, when it is a pilots market they still get to choose who they want as the major carriers are always in demand, when it is an employers market they just choose who they want.
The idea that the end is nigh etc. for major carriers where employment of pilots is concerned is just wishful thinking, it is the lower echelons of aviation that will suffer, always was, always will be.
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One can always afford to be arrogant whilst holding the high ground, as CX/KA has in the employment stakes for the past number of years. But one can ill afford to be arrogant when the enemy has cleaved a number of your troops and the defences are weakened.
I understand that cargo interviews are now ill attended. Standard of prospective employee has dropped. Perhaps the day of the "majors" has passed in HKG. The pollution, scavenged conditions of service, salary ravaged by inflation and low morale amongst the other bug bears have cast the "likely canditates" into the arms of "home based Carriers".
Parked Airplanes cost money and dont make money. It cannot fly without Pilots and Hong Kong aint no bed of roses for that Career any more.
I understand that cargo interviews are now ill attended. Standard of prospective employee has dropped. Perhaps the day of the "majors" has passed in HKG. The pollution, scavenged conditions of service, salary ravaged by inflation and low morale amongst the other bug bears have cast the "likely canditates" into the arms of "home based Carriers".
Parked Airplanes cost money and dont make money. It cannot fly without Pilots and Hong Kong aint no bed of roses for that Career any more.
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A couple of thoughts.
In my opinion if the relatively unionised, legislatively protected pilot's unions couldn't win in australia in 1989, then we know confronting CX 'head on' is not a realistic option here in HKG today. The only thing they seem to respond to is the sound of the footsteps fading of recent departees.
Do not underestimate what effect a small % of departures has right now. Let me give you a very small, but simplistic example.
Lets say we have a pilot body of 10(all CNs). One guy is full time checking and training the other 9 guys. Well this little company decides to expand by say 10-20% per year. Well now they have to use guy no 9 in an expansion role. He has to train for two purposes...1, to replace his own position since 9 pilots were previously doing all the work, and 2, to train up the expansion guys. Now just imagine if one of the other 8 guys chooses to leave! Now guy no 10 was busy with recurrent training, guy no 9 was busy with expansion training. Guy no 1 has left...so presumably guy no 2(or 3-8) has to take on the job of training his replacement. Whilst this guy is training his replacement he is offline and cannot contribute to the growth of the airline. So before the expansion there were 9 guys doing the work...as the expansion started, 8 guys did the work waiting for guy no 9 to train his replacement...then another guy leaves leaving them with 7 guys....see the domino effect!
SO a 1 or 2% resignation rate has a huge impact in times of huge growth and minimal impact in times of no growth.
In my opinion if the relatively unionised, legislatively protected pilot's unions couldn't win in australia in 1989, then we know confronting CX 'head on' is not a realistic option here in HKG today. The only thing they seem to respond to is the sound of the footsteps fading of recent departees.
Do not underestimate what effect a small % of departures has right now. Let me give you a very small, but simplistic example.
Lets say we have a pilot body of 10(all CNs). One guy is full time checking and training the other 9 guys. Well this little company decides to expand by say 10-20% per year. Well now they have to use guy no 9 in an expansion role. He has to train for two purposes...1, to replace his own position since 9 pilots were previously doing all the work, and 2, to train up the expansion guys. Now just imagine if one of the other 8 guys chooses to leave! Now guy no 10 was busy with recurrent training, guy no 9 was busy with expansion training. Guy no 1 has left...so presumably guy no 2(or 3-8) has to take on the job of training his replacement. Whilst this guy is training his replacement he is offline and cannot contribute to the growth of the airline. So before the expansion there were 9 guys doing the work...as the expansion started, 8 guys did the work waiting for guy no 9 to train his replacement...then another guy leaves leaving them with 7 guys....see the domino effect!
SO a 1 or 2% resignation rate has a huge impact in times of huge growth and minimal impact in times of no growth.
Last edited by Numero Crunchero; 19th Jun 2007 at 03:04.
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hmmmm
Numero, am glad you added your summary at the end, kind of got lost in that but get your point.
There is no doubt that CX will be attractive to alot of people still, but not as much as it used to. To those who say CX has always survived these pilots shortages etc, i say that was then.....we now have China, Middle East and India taking up so much of the slack that CX must take notice. If UPS/Fed Ex keep going at their rate and the N.American majors start really upping the ante, CX will be left high and dry very quickly!!
For me CX is a very good airline to work for in most aspects, however, whether they are going to be worth staying in HKG for in a couple of years will be another thing. From what i have heard from others, we all feel that where we plan our careers in a couple of years time will be dependant on what happens this time around with the talks. It would be the easiest thing if i can continue with CX, however, i will not overlook better offers back home in Oz should they arise.....market forces and all that!!!
There is no doubt that CX will be attractive to alot of people still, but not as much as it used to. To those who say CX has always survived these pilots shortages etc, i say that was then.....we now have China, Middle East and India taking up so much of the slack that CX must take notice. If UPS/Fed Ex keep going at their rate and the N.American majors start really upping the ante, CX will be left high and dry very quickly!!
For me CX is a very good airline to work for in most aspects, however, whether they are going to be worth staying in HKG for in a couple of years will be another thing. From what i have heard from others, we all feel that where we plan our careers in a couple of years time will be dependant on what happens this time around with the talks. It would be the easiest thing if i can continue with CX, however, i will not overlook better offers back home in Oz should they arise.....market forces and all that!!!
fiftypercentn1
It’s a bit like some of us can’t see what’s so good about working for a LCC and having to pay for your endorsement, work your arse off on short haul sectors and then getting sh*t pay for the privilege. I suppose it’s horses for courses really isn’t it?
It’s a bit like some of us can’t see what’s so good about working for a LCC and having to pay for your endorsement, work your arse off on short haul sectors and then getting sh*t pay for the privilege. I suppose it’s horses for courses really isn’t it?
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fiftypercentn1,
In countries where most of the recruits come from, Australia, NZ, Sth Africa, Canada, you can easily have up to 5000 hrs and have little chance of ever moving up from a turbo prop or even light twin.
IMHO that's why these experienced pilots still come looking for the heavy metal (and lets not forget more pay) job in HKG.
However, in the near future, with airlines such as Virgin Blue and Jetstar expanding as quickly as they are, I can see the potential candidate numbers reducing. I know if I had a job in OZ flying with 1 of those companies, I doubt I would have come to HKG. I might even go back sooner than I had anticipated.
In countries where most of the recruits come from, Australia, NZ, Sth Africa, Canada, you can easily have up to 5000 hrs and have little chance of ever moving up from a turbo prop or even light twin.
IMHO that's why these experienced pilots still come looking for the heavy metal (and lets not forget more pay) job in HKG.
However, in the near future, with airlines such as Virgin Blue and Jetstar expanding as quickly as they are, I can see the potential candidate numbers reducing. I know if I had a job in OZ flying with 1 of those companies, I doubt I would have come to HKG. I might even go back sooner than I had anticipated.
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The State of Play
Ok. I'll jump in and give it a go...
The North Americans are tending to give CX a wide berth as reported several times previously. The COS are simply not attractive enough and the culture in both management and training (sorry...checking) is a well known joke. Word is simply getting around; pilots in North America have more and superior choices. These guys are experienced and will not tolerate being treated like children/200 hour CPL's as guys and girls are at CX.
The South Africans will always come. It's the only way they can earn and keep money out of S Africa.
The Kiwis will always come, but the NZD at it's current level is not making CX a particularly attractive option. The buying power of the 'mighty' CX dollar (i.e. HKD) has erroded some 40+ percent over the last decade when considered in terms of the NZD.
The Ozzies are in a similar situation to the Kiwis. The difference is that there are more options in Australia. In particular now that Virgin is about to poach a whole bunch of 777 drivers from CX and EK. I am sure that the package will be just enough to entice folks away from the sandpit and pollution city. This is especially in the Capt rank. That will hurt both CX and EK.
As stated previously, the strength of the Euro and GBP is tending to make Europeans think twice about heading to CX.
All this and the shortage of pilots elsewhere and people simply see other options as being better. Additionally, many know the crap that CX pilots have to put up with in terms of hoops to jump through (yes, even from the interview. Sorry, who started this airline? The name of the first plane? What engine is on the 773? How many 777's? Describe mach tuck? Really important stuff!!). Again, word is getting around about all the shyte that CX guys have to put up with. Expect 10 years of it. Only when you have a command does it pretty much stop. And don't expect one soon if 65 goes through. Gotta fight that one I tell ya!
NR knows it's gonna be tough. He'll want to push a deal through now as he knows it's gonna be cheap compared to 1 year from now when the sqeeze really starts to tell in terms of pilots (lack of) and planes (lots of). It's his career on the line more than ours.......
The North Americans are tending to give CX a wide berth as reported several times previously. The COS are simply not attractive enough and the culture in both management and training (sorry...checking) is a well known joke. Word is simply getting around; pilots in North America have more and superior choices. These guys are experienced and will not tolerate being treated like children/200 hour CPL's as guys and girls are at CX.
The South Africans will always come. It's the only way they can earn and keep money out of S Africa.
The Kiwis will always come, but the NZD at it's current level is not making CX a particularly attractive option. The buying power of the 'mighty' CX dollar (i.e. HKD) has erroded some 40+ percent over the last decade when considered in terms of the NZD.
The Ozzies are in a similar situation to the Kiwis. The difference is that there are more options in Australia. In particular now that Virgin is about to poach a whole bunch of 777 drivers from CX and EK. I am sure that the package will be just enough to entice folks away from the sandpit and pollution city. This is especially in the Capt rank. That will hurt both CX and EK.
As stated previously, the strength of the Euro and GBP is tending to make Europeans think twice about heading to CX.
All this and the shortage of pilots elsewhere and people simply see other options as being better. Additionally, many know the crap that CX pilots have to put up with in terms of hoops to jump through (yes, even from the interview. Sorry, who started this airline? The name of the first plane? What engine is on the 773? How many 777's? Describe mach tuck? Really important stuff!!). Again, word is getting around about all the shyte that CX guys have to put up with. Expect 10 years of it. Only when you have a command does it pretty much stop. And don't expect one soon if 65 goes through. Gotta fight that one I tell ya!
NR knows it's gonna be tough. He'll want to push a deal through now as he knows it's gonna be cheap compared to 1 year from now when the sqeeze really starts to tell in terms of pilots (lack of) and planes (lots of). It's his career on the line more than ours.......
Last edited by newbie1972; 8th Jun 2007 at 22:49.
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thanx waldo for ur answer..obviously being from Europe I didnt know that side of the Oz/Kiwi/sth Afr. recruitment situation.
404 Titan: I get your point, but trust me LCCs can be better than the way u picture them. If ure wiv a good one, money is quite good,fixed roster pattern, brand new aircraft, command is really quick, u have a huge choice of bases + u can move around when u feel like, quite common to fly 60 to 70 hrs a month (donno if u consider that a lot or very little..), atmosphere is very good, plus i dont mind flying many approaches a week. Obviously theres downsides as well, not sayin the opposite. That was why I was wandering why one would ever consider sittin on a jumpseat for yrs..(can u consider that PAYING for your endorsement?..i would say so..)
thanx ciao
404 Titan: I get your point, but trust me LCCs can be better than the way u picture them. If ure wiv a good one, money is quite good,fixed roster pattern, brand new aircraft, command is really quick, u have a huge choice of bases + u can move around when u feel like, quite common to fly 60 to 70 hrs a month (donno if u consider that a lot or very little..), atmosphere is very good, plus i dont mind flying many approaches a week. Obviously theres downsides as well, not sayin the opposite. That was why I was wandering why one would ever consider sittin on a jumpseat for yrs..(can u consider that PAYING for your endorsement?..i would say so..)
thanx ciao
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uumm...have you heard of an LCC called SWA? sh!t pay, huh? plus you actually get to FLY instead of sitting on your arse clicking on the mike. i don't mind the multiples sectors either (the way they pay us), keeps me sharp and proficient.
BTW, i turned down a DEFO interview with CX to go to SWA! Looks like a no brainer to me. G'day!
BTW, i turned down a DEFO interview with CX to go to SWA! Looks like a no brainer to me. G'day!