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upgrade failure rates / sacked while in trainig

Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

upgrade failure rates / sacked while in trainig

Old 1st Jan 2007, 12:31
  #81 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Australia
Posts: 3,927
That would be my first call out, "your airplane". Now I can concentrate on managing all my resources to reach a successful outcome.
If you as captain have to shove the responsibility of flying an emergency on to a surprised ccopilot then either you are gutless and should not be in the LH seat or you are incompetent - same result. You make the whole business of flying an aeroplane so complicated when it is not. "Managing resources" is just another example of weasel words.
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Old 1st Jan 2007, 14:52
  #82 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Smogsville
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Centaurus, your "surprised copilot" sounds like the incompetent one, if he can't handle flying the plane during an emegency he shouldn't be there. Sounds like you don't need him
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Old 1st Jan 2007, 18:03
  #83 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: 3.5 from TD
Posts: 999
Originally Posted by Centaurus View Post
If you as captain have to shove the responsibility of flying an emergency on to a surprised ccopilot then either you are gutless and should not be in the LH seat or you are incompetent - same result. You make the whole business of flying an aeroplane so complicated when it is not. "Managing resources" is just another example of weasel words.
I was just about to reply to you, but then I saw your location.

Enough said.
Sqwak7700 is offline  
Old 1st Jan 2007, 20:07
  #84 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 463
Centaurus, it is standard proceedure unless loss of bus renders instruments on FO's side inop....... Capt to work checklist with other avail crew members and trouble shoot whilst monitoring FO performance. Your emotive comments are not justified and lack perspective.

Sqwak7700, your comment re location belies a lack of maturity. Dumb call.
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Old 1st Jan 2007, 20:41
  #85 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Over There
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Originally Posted by fire wall View Post
Your emotive comments are not justified and lack perspective.
...and experience with CRM.
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Old 15th Jan 2007, 13:35
  #86 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: GC Paradise
Posts: 1,033
I loved Numero Crunchero's post on airbags!

May I say that I came from an era prior to airbags where the aviation margins were sometimes very slim indeed. My generation of pilots had to walk through too many smouldering stinking sites and attend too many funerals to leave any element too chance. Because there was very little passive safety to save your arse if you stuffed it up.

As a result of those earlier experiences, new aviation systems have been invented and operational procedures have improved tremendously. It would now appear to the newer chaps and the uninitiated that the margins are now excessive, perhaps too commercially expensive and in any case too damn personally inconvenient!

We should reflect that on every sector we embark on is is a one-way ticket to a smoking hole, the aversion of which is ultimately left to pure and simple excellence (or otherwise) of the training and judgement of the operating crew.
Now, just exactly where were we saying that CX's training standards are too high?

I guess my job is making airbags out of windbags!
FlexibleResponse is offline  
Old 16th Jan 2007, 05:43
  #87 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Asia
Posts: 335
Broken record

Flex Numero :

Once again it is not that the standards are too high.

The problem is that the checking is not standard across the fleets. This is why you have different pass rates on different fleets, even when considering aircraft differences. It is also why different checkers have different pass rates. No particular C+T should stand out with a dramatically higher failure rate. We all know there are those that do. You even have checkers bragging that they are harder on certain nationalities than others. The training management ,and I am sure you, are aware that a "4" from one checker is another's "2" etc. etc.

So please stop making out that the issue is about lowering the standards. The issue is about applying the standards evenly to every candidate across the fleets.

Soap Box off........FG
Five Green is offline  
Old 17th Jan 2007, 13:20
  #88 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 67
Angel

FG
Just so that we know where you are coming from, what Training and Checking experience / qualifications did you have prior to CX?
electricjetjock is offline  
Old 18th Jan 2007, 11:43
  #89 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Asia
Posts: 335
Brokener record

Deep breath and typing....... "one who has been chosen" asks what right 'one from below" has to question....

And again I will answer in the same way as I have before on this forum. If you attempt to solve a problem by only solliciting those above you and those you deem as more learned than you, how can you really fix the problem.

Your attitude speaks to the whole problem here at BBSA (Big Brush Stroke Airlines ). Do not question authority and do not speak out. Those two examples of company culture, have in the cockpit, caused serious accidents in the not too distant past.

What you should be asking is " How can I learn something from everyone around me ?" If you don't, then you are one of the arrogant few surviving by pure luck.....because I got news for you, you do not know everything.

Happy Flying.

FG
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Old 18th Jan 2007, 14:55
  #90 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: GC Paradise
Posts: 1,033
As an F/O, a new Captain said to me, "When I was an F/O nobody wanted to hear what I had to say. Now that I am a Captain, everybody listens to my every word."

When you get your upgrade to Captain , remember to treat your F/O and crew with respect and treat them in a way that you would have wanted to have been treated. Don't abuse the position of power and the respect that has been bestowed upon you with the upgrade.

There is nothing new in aviation. When you become part of the C&T section, "son of 5G" will be up your clacker like a rat up a drainpipe. This is time-honoured and healthy and part of the apprenticeship.

Use your time to pick the best from the best you fly with and put that into your personal toolbox.

When you fly with the worst, rather than hiding in your corner of the cockpit, try to enhance the mission with your own personal qualities and make a difference. When you can meet that challenge, you will have arrived.

Happy landings!
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Old 19th Jan 2007, 06:12
  #91 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 67
Angel FG

"Empty kettles make the most noise"!!
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Old 19th Jan 2007, 11:20
  #92 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Asia
Posts: 335
oozing with intellect

Elec Jock:

So how long did it take you to think up that informed response ?

FG
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Old 19th Jan 2007, 13:51
  #93 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 67
Angel

FG
A Nanosecond o great Oracle of the harbour!
Why the chip on your shoulder FG and what makes YOU the fountain of all knowledge. Please do enlighten us all.
All I know for certain is that I do NOT know it all and the day I stop learning and think I know it all is the day I will give up flying, that will not be for a long time yet. We are all fallible and I certainly try to TRAIN and impart knowledge thus hopefully allowing the trainee to develop his or her own style. Unfortunately your pontificating just puts you in the same league as the people you are supposedly condemning.
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Old 20th Jan 2007, 11:40
  #94 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Asia
Posts: 335
You posed the question. The question itself represents the issue. What diiference does it make what my background is ?

However I have worked in check and training elsewhere. I have also helped write policy and procedural manuals for airlines in the past. I have seen the check and training thing done far worse and I have seen some methods that if included in the Cathay training programme would make our very good system even better.

Other systems have checks and balances in them to prevent the uneven application of policy. In terms of individual trainers, inter-fleet and fleet specific policy. While I know that there is a move towards improving this area, I think we need to do more. I bring this up now because the crunch is coming. If the anticipated number of command slots is to be filled at our current average pass rate of (aprox) 65% then we need to change the methods, or at least recognise the limitations of the current system. If you look at the numbers and even assume a pass rate of 75% then you will need to process 200 command candidates to get 150 commanders. Not possible under the current system. Best case we can do 100-120 command courses and get 75-90 captains which is well short of the projected requirement.

So where do they get the captains from ?

I have never made a personal comment about your abilities. The fact you read and post here tells me you are concerned enough and proud enough of your position at BBSA. I am sure that you do not represent the style of "checking only" that is so common.

Cheers, looking forward to meanigful discussion on how we handle the training and improve the pass rates at all levels.

FG
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Old 22nd Jan 2007, 08:19
  #95 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: England
Posts: 579
What's with this 'big brush stroke' idea...I always thought it was a headless parrot...
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Old 22nd Jan 2007, 12:36
  #96 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: HKG
Posts: 1,390
Its alright Basil. Anyone who knows SOP's is also astonished.
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Old 24th Jan 2007, 08:01
  #97 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Asia
Posts: 71
"Not WHO is right, but WHAT is right", maybe news to jetjock... daily bread and butter for most others across the industry, nuff said.

I can second five greens contention of lack of standardisation, when I left CX I had another manager apologise for what he called a personality clash with a someone in a key position on a certain fleet. Nice to be told you have been on the wrong fleet at the wrong time, it is also costing the company money and hemorrhaging growth. Might be time to get rid of the old gits and adopt a modern approach to human resources management.

Last edited by CruisingSpeed; 24th Jan 2007 at 08:15.
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Old 24th Jan 2007, 13:58
  #98 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 67
Angel

CS

Great statement! Where have we advocated that it is the WHO and not the WHAT?

Try reading and understanding the posts. NUFF SAID!!!!!!
electricjetjock is offline  
Old 26th Jan 2007, 11:36
  #99 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Asia
Posts: 71
I think I do understand where you are coming from with Post Nr. 93 and subsequent, prevalent attitude in your latitudes.
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