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Chronic thread drift here .... Edited my original post for clarity and sensitiviities. Hope it no longer offends any specific demographic.
There is a common foe here .... and they certainly aren't on A, B, C or C minus scales.
There is a common foe here .... and they certainly aren't on A, B, C or C minus scales.
Last edited by CXpletive; 19th Nov 2011 at 12:15.
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Originally Posted by Plover
The rot started with pilots accepting B scale. Slippery slide ever since.
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Messiah
You're mixing up two separate events.
The first, in 1995 - was not a "sign or be fired" ultimatum. What it DID threaten (and was true it's word, by the way) that if the officer chose not to sign, there would be no bases, salary increases or type changes for the individual. At that time, there were 18 who chose not to sign. Many of the 18 names reappeared on another list, in 2001.
Without getting long winded about the contract, it was raising the overtime threshold and reducing overtime rates. As it was a deterioration in CoS, it was unenforcable - hence the "option".
The second event, in 1999, was an ultimatum - and ALL eventually signed. It was a nominal "improvement", so the threat could be made. CX management, frustrated after years of contractual impasse, wanted an end to industrial bickering that defined KB's tenure, and presented (not without warning) an improved package - blessed by the HKSAR labour department.
Why the AOA chose to dispute the package was because it wasn't a negotiated deal. The enforcement led to the industrial action it tried to avoid, which led to the disgraceful 49'ers sacking, and all that has followed.
People in glass houses...
You're mixing up two separate events.
The first, in 1995 - was not a "sign or be fired" ultimatum. What it DID threaten (and was true it's word, by the way) that if the officer chose not to sign, there would be no bases, salary increases or type changes for the individual. At that time, there were 18 who chose not to sign. Many of the 18 names reappeared on another list, in 2001.
Without getting long winded about the contract, it was raising the overtime threshold and reducing overtime rates. As it was a deterioration in CoS, it was unenforcable - hence the "option".
The second event, in 1999, was an ultimatum - and ALL eventually signed. It was a nominal "improvement", so the threat could be made. CX management, frustrated after years of contractual impasse, wanted an end to industrial bickering that defined KB's tenure, and presented (not without warning) an improved package - blessed by the HKSAR labour department.
Why the AOA chose to dispute the package was because it wasn't a negotiated deal. The enforcement led to the industrial action it tried to avoid, which led to the disgraceful 49'ers sacking, and all that has followed.
People in glass houses...
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Originally Posted by Cpt. Underpants
The first, in 1995 - was not a "sign or be fired" ultimatum. What it DID threaten (and was true it's word, by the way) that if the officer chose not to sign, there would be no bases, salary increases or type changes for the individual. At that time, there were 18 who chose not to sign. Many of the 18 names reappeared on another list, in 2001.
Last edited by The Messiah; 20th Nov 2011 at 13:54.
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Messiah
What's been left out is the relationship that existed between the pilot body (ably represented by "video rental club") and CX management.
We numbered about 600 or 700 aircrew (including engineers), we knew each other, we knew the managers, and "negotiations" were carried out in the Cathay Club in the corner, over a few ales.
What hit us in '95 was like a sledgehammer to the side to the head. Complete betrayal, akin to finding your beloved is a transsexual cross dresser(!) or a secret ultimate fighter. Completely out of character, so 180° out we didn't know what to do. I called the AOA for guidance and was told that "most were accepting" the deal. "Be guided accordingly".
With the benefit of hindsight, of course we shouldn't have signed, but put yourself in our shoes for a minute. We were negotiating in good faith, we were patting each other on the back in the corridors, rubbing shoulders in the Marina, trusted and empowered officers of the realm...the real deal.
Then the great betrayal. What would you have done? Really? You'd have done what 682/700 did, and sign...
Rumor has it that our utter collapse was met with incredulity and disbelief and they partied on the 10/F for weeks, the bastards.
What's been left out is the relationship that existed between the pilot body (ably represented by "video rental club") and CX management.
We numbered about 600 or 700 aircrew (including engineers), we knew each other, we knew the managers, and "negotiations" were carried out in the Cathay Club in the corner, over a few ales.
What hit us in '95 was like a sledgehammer to the side to the head. Complete betrayal, akin to finding your beloved is a transsexual cross dresser(!) or a secret ultimate fighter. Completely out of character, so 180° out we didn't know what to do. I called the AOA for guidance and was told that "most were accepting" the deal. "Be guided accordingly".
With the benefit of hindsight, of course we shouldn't have signed, but put yourself in our shoes for a minute. We were negotiating in good faith, we were patting each other on the back in the corridors, rubbing shoulders in the Marina, trusted and empowered officers of the realm...the real deal.
Then the great betrayal. What would you have done? Really? You'd have done what 682/700 did, and sign...
Rumor has it that our utter collapse was met with incredulity and disbelief and they partied on the 10/F for weeks, the bastards.
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Undies,
So they introduced the B scale in '93-94 & ASL a couple years later, and you guys were surprised in '96 and '99. Wow, you A scalers get a lot more credit for smarts than you deserve!
So they introduced the B scale in '93-94 & ASL a couple years later, and you guys were surprised in '96 and '99. Wow, you A scalers get a lot more credit for smarts than you deserve!
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Who ever credited "A" scalers with being smart?
We're "drivers, airframe", just like every other pilot who has ever joined CX - up to the halfwits who sign on to the iCadet scheme (who have to be mentally deficient in some way).
Yes, we joined a different company, yes, we were a lot more experienced and yes, it was an old boys club, but "smart"? That's a stretch.
We're "drivers, airframe", just like every other pilot who has ever joined CX - up to the halfwits who sign on to the iCadet scheme (who have to be mentally deficient in some way).
Yes, we joined a different company, yes, we were a lot more experienced and yes, it was an old boys club, but "smart"? That's a stretch.
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Wow, you A scalers get a lot more credit for smarts than you deserve
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A thread that started out questioning management values (an oxymoron some might argue) has degenerated into an A vs B vs C slanging match. Is it any wonder we're where we find ourselves today?
That's some strange logic trying to put the blame on people that weren't even working for the company for the reduction in your own conditions. I've heard it said that the "sign or be fired" pay cut for A-scale of the 90's was when it started of which about 20 guys refused to sign over and guess what? They were never fired. So that's 20 guys with a backbone out of how many of you were there?
I like to think that what Messiah says should ring true.
yet only 18 had the gonads for the fight yet the start of the slippery slope was somehow the acceptance of B scale by pilots with families who were all taking large pay increases to sign onto it? No wonder we are where we are.
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Cxorcist.....
And by inference, you are the intelligent one?
Give us the benefit of your intellectual prowess....tell us what have you done to improve our lot? Have you ever put ever put your job where your mouth is? Participated in any industrial campaigns lately? Watched 50 of your friends get fired because of your involved in an industrial dispute?
You haven't earned the right to criticize or throw stones.....but throw them you do.....nice guy.
And by inference, you are the intelligent one?
Give us the benefit of your intellectual prowess....tell us what have you done to improve our lot? Have you ever put ever put your job where your mouth is? Participated in any industrial campaigns lately? Watched 50 of your friends get fired because of your involved in an industrial dispute?
You haven't earned the right to criticize or throw stones.....but throw them you do.....nice guy.
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Raven,
As a matter of fact, I do consider myself intelligent. Is that is excessively arrogant to you coming from a lowly B scaler? More importantly however, I am principled and live life with conviction. This seems to be the area A scalers were/are lacking.
It does not take intelligence to unite when being attacked, just gumption and common sense. JW and the committee made a few ballsy calls, and you guys went running for cover. Those are the facts. As a group, you did not stand behind the AOA or the 49ers. Instead, everyone got scared and the wheels of CX aircraft kept turning. WEAK!!! At least call in unfit due stress. For ****'s sake! Get a doctor's note if you needed to CYA.
Unless you have served honorably on the committee, I have done more than you for "improving our lot". I have not had the opportunity to put my job in the line, but I believe I would not faulter if it was required. I was fully prepared to enter rigid CC one year ago if asked. I voted for both motions last year and preferred this pilot group be tested right away. Unfortunately, the membership chose the more conservative option. That said, I must admit that I am insure how we would have performed as a group if the AOA had asked.
That is where the utter failure of effective A scale leadership (and followership) during the 90s and early 00s rears its ugly head. No matter how united the rest of the pilot group may be, we all know there are several hundred pilot at the top of the list whom have failed in the past and are clearly only interested in protecting themselves into retirement (Número Crunchero being the only exception I have met).
With respect to being a "nice guy", I have every confidence you would enjoy flying with me if you haven't already. Unless of course, you started spewing all this weak defense of the A scaler garbage. You guys pooched it. We know it. You know it. Why not just learn from it and do better next time? Because there will be a next time. I just hope you guys are gone when it happens...
As a matter of fact, I do consider myself intelligent. Is that is excessively arrogant to you coming from a lowly B scaler? More importantly however, I am principled and live life with conviction. This seems to be the area A scalers were/are lacking.
It does not take intelligence to unite when being attacked, just gumption and common sense. JW and the committee made a few ballsy calls, and you guys went running for cover. Those are the facts. As a group, you did not stand behind the AOA or the 49ers. Instead, everyone got scared and the wheels of CX aircraft kept turning. WEAK!!! At least call in unfit due stress. For ****'s sake! Get a doctor's note if you needed to CYA.
Unless you have served honorably on the committee, I have done more than you for "improving our lot". I have not had the opportunity to put my job in the line, but I believe I would not faulter if it was required. I was fully prepared to enter rigid CC one year ago if asked. I voted for both motions last year and preferred this pilot group be tested right away. Unfortunately, the membership chose the more conservative option. That said, I must admit that I am insure how we would have performed as a group if the AOA had asked.
That is where the utter failure of effective A scale leadership (and followership) during the 90s and early 00s rears its ugly head. No matter how united the rest of the pilot group may be, we all know there are several hundred pilot at the top of the list whom have failed in the past and are clearly only interested in protecting themselves into retirement (Número Crunchero being the only exception I have met).
With respect to being a "nice guy", I have every confidence you would enjoy flying with me if you haven't already. Unless of course, you started spewing all this weak defense of the A scaler garbage. You guys pooched it. We know it. You know it. Why not just learn from it and do better next time? Because there will be a next time. I just hope you guys are gone when it happens...
Last edited by cxorcist; 22nd Nov 2011 at 01:47.
cxorcist,
Well done that man!
You have hit the nail on the head with regards the A scale lethargy, inactivity and general 'keep our heads down' gutlessness over the years. There are the very very occasional exception but in general, true to a man.
Industrially, the A scale group are an embarrassment
Well done that man!
You have hit the nail on the head with regards the A scale lethargy, inactivity and general 'keep our heads down' gutlessness over the years. There are the very very occasional exception but in general, true to a man.
Industrially, the A scale group are an embarrassment
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CXorsist
I'm betting you are not as smart and ballsy as you think you are, I am still waiting for you to tell us just what you have done to improve your and you colleagues lot over the years apart from voting for a couple of motions Mr tough guy. You seem so ignorant I bet you have never heard of WOE, MSS and a entire range of other actions been taken over the years. Oh yes I better mention, yes sport I and many others been on strike long term as well...have you?? bet not. You are cluesless as to what road, the hardships, the people you slag off about have taken to be employed by CX.
I reckon there is a good chance you have had a very comfortable upbringing, never had to work hard for any thing, your flying paid for by Daddy or the military.....took a job with CX..... felt bad about taking B scale and had to deflect the blame to suppress your guilt. You go to work all bitter and twisted and are a pain in the arse to sit next to and are a generally a whiner. You are a glass half empty guy and envious of what others have earnt and you want it without the hard yards or years of service.
You need to take a long hard look at your chosen airline and decide wether to continue as you are one screwed up individual with a gigantic chip on you shoulder which is going to destroy you or way or another if you don't let go of you warped sense of justice.
You actually have a good job , why don't you try to enjoy it and life one day!!
I'm betting you are not as smart and ballsy as you think you are, I am still waiting for you to tell us just what you have done to improve your and you colleagues lot over the years apart from voting for a couple of motions Mr tough guy. You seem so ignorant I bet you have never heard of WOE, MSS and a entire range of other actions been taken over the years. Oh yes I better mention, yes sport I and many others been on strike long term as well...have you?? bet not. You are cluesless as to what road, the hardships, the people you slag off about have taken to be employed by CX.
I reckon there is a good chance you have had a very comfortable upbringing, never had to work hard for any thing, your flying paid for by Daddy or the military.....took a job with CX..... felt bad about taking B scale and had to deflect the blame to suppress your guilt. You go to work all bitter and twisted and are a pain in the arse to sit next to and are a generally a whiner. You are a glass half empty guy and envious of what others have earnt and you want it without the hard yards or years of service.
You need to take a long hard look at your chosen airline and decide wether to continue as you are one screwed up individual with a gigantic chip on you shoulder which is going to destroy you or way or another if you don't let go of you warped sense of justice.
You actually have a good job , why don't you try to enjoy it and life one day!!
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CyrilJ,
Where do you get your inspiration to attack cxorcist like that? What you wrote following what he wrote is a non sequitur.
What else can he DO except for vote for a couple of motions? The AOA never has had the bal*s to do anything except vote. If you call MSS something you've never walked a picket line.
The bottom line, though, is that in Hong Kong, we as employees have no power. The courts and the company are in bed and as soon as we all realize that this is a contract job, renewable every six months, the better we will all be.
The company just loves it when we go at each other like this. Why do you think they agreed to split Canada and Australia into different unions despite it appearing to be more costly? Divide and conquer.
It is, and will always be, every man and woman for him or herself.
Where do you get your inspiration to attack cxorcist like that? What you wrote following what he wrote is a non sequitur.
What else can he DO except for vote for a couple of motions? The AOA never has had the bal*s to do anything except vote. If you call MSS something you've never walked a picket line.
The bottom line, though, is that in Hong Kong, we as employees have no power. The courts and the company are in bed and as soon as we all realize that this is a contract job, renewable every six months, the better we will all be.
The company just loves it when we go at each other like this. Why do you think they agreed to split Canada and Australia into different unions despite it appearing to be more costly? Divide and conquer.
It is, and will always be, every man and woman for him or herself.
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where do I get my inspiration? from reading his constant A scale dribble , that's where. JUST IN THIS THREAD ALONE HIS COMMENTS RE A SCALE ARE
A scalers unprincipled, utter failure of A scale leadership, interested only in protecting themselves, spewing up a weak defence of A scaler garbage, hope you guys are gone, sins of their fathers have biblical roots, I bet you owe back dues, you A scalers who quit the AOA, greediest generations, have your cake and eat it too... enjoy your 8 day training roster
do I need to go on......the man is not getting free pot shots at my generation without some return fire
Cyril
kaboom
A scalers unprincipled, utter failure of A scale leadership, interested only in protecting themselves, spewing up a weak defence of A scaler garbage, hope you guys are gone, sins of their fathers have biblical roots, I bet you owe back dues, you A scalers who quit the AOA, greediest generations, have your cake and eat it too... enjoy your 8 day training roster
do I need to go on......the man is not getting free pot shots at my generation without some return fire
Cyril
kaboom
Last edited by CYRILJGROOVE; 22nd Nov 2011 at 04:56.
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The inference in many of these posts is that had the A scalers stood up and been counted then many of the situations in which we've found ourselves over the past few years would have been averted. Using the same logic then, if all the current members chose to "pick up a weapon and stand at post" (as Nathan Jessop would say) then the current situation with iCadets and so forth would be averted and we'd go from strength to strength.
I seem to recall that JW and ND were both strong leaders and A scalers. The majority of the Association are now B scalers so should we not look to that majority for the sort of leadership that those such as cxorcist are espousing?
STP
I seem to recall that JW and ND were both strong leaders and A scalers. The majority of the Association are now B scalers so should we not look to that majority for the sort of leadership that those such as cxorcist are espousing?
STP
Last edited by Steve the Pirate; 22nd Nov 2011 at 15:25. Reason: Appalling grammar!