The Lights are On, but there's Nobody Home
Thread Starter
The Lights are On, but there's Nobody Home
Is there a pattern emerging here or is it merely paranoia?
1 49ers fired.
2 Company recruitment during black ban.
3 Non-pilot DFO appointed.
4 Deputy DFO (pilot-type) resigned position to go back to line duties.
5 Tailstrike and then continued flight to destination.
6 “Sporty landing” approach.
7 Windshear G/A with no one attending the controls.
8 CX owned AHK/DHL new aircraft off runway.
9 Notices to crew issued by UK “Telegraph”.
Topic: CX Windsheer G/A! post removed:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...5&pagenumber=3
Telegraph:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.../ixportal.html
Artist's Graphic:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/grap...GSM5OAVCBQWJVC
1 49ers fired.
2 Company recruitment during black ban.
3 Non-pilot DFO appointed.
4 Deputy DFO (pilot-type) resigned position to go back to line duties.
5 Tailstrike and then continued flight to destination.
6 “Sporty landing” approach.
7 Windshear G/A with no one attending the controls.
8 CX owned AHK/DHL new aircraft off runway.
9 Notices to crew issued by UK “Telegraph”.
Topic: CX Windsheer G/A! post removed:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...5&pagenumber=3
Telegraph:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.../ixportal.html
Artist's Graphic:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/grap...GSM5OAVCBQWJVC
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.......... and surprise, surprise, there is nothing in the on-line SCMP the day after the Telegraph story!
http://hongkong.scmp.com/hknews/ZZZCZQ45OXD.html
(Subscription needed to access that page).
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I am really disappointed that it takes so long for flt ops to investigate these problems of late and give us some real information on how everything came about, instead of just telling us to review the procedures.
Maybe the idea was to keep things out of the media, but we can see now that that didn't really work.
If the windshear warning drowns out or overlaps the ap disconnect warning, i'd like to know.
I'm sure there is something to learn from these events and I don't see why there has to be a delay.
my 2 cents
Maybe the idea was to keep things out of the media, but we can see now that that didn't really work.
If the windshear warning drowns out or overlaps the ap disconnect warning, i'd like to know.
I'm sure there is something to learn from these events and I don't see why there has to be a delay.
my 2 cents
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You've hit the nail on the head Oasis!
The incident took place in August. The first 'information' appeared 45 days later in a UK newspaper.
What sort of flight safety reporting system is that?
minor edit applied to specific date and flight number.
The incident took place in August. The first 'information' appeared 45 days later in a UK newspaper.
What sort of flight safety reporting system is that?
minor edit applied to specific date and flight number.
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On the other hand CPdude, if they were open about it, there wouldn't a story to run to the press with.
IMHO, the facts should be publicised asap so we can all learn from it and maybe prevent it happening again
IMHO, the facts should be publicised asap so we can all learn from it and maybe prevent it happening again
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No amount of honest confession could make up for the negative effect on people's minds by such irresponsible media coverage.
You end up having to reveal even more information than if you just put your hand up as soon as something like that happens.
You end up having to reveal even more information than if you just put your hand up as soon as something like that happens.
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Five Livers
I am extremely suspicious of your motives. Within your posts you have diliberately and methodically identified the flight in question. What next ? Name the crew? Publish their home telephone numbers? Send the press round for an interview?
Highly unprofessional and disloyal to your fellow crew and company!
The post in question has been subject to a minor edit that may in fact resolve some of this criticism
I am extremely suspicious of your motives. Within your posts you have diliberately and methodically identified the flight in question. What next ? Name the crew? Publish their home telephone numbers? Send the press round for an interview?
Highly unprofessional and disloyal to your fellow crew and company!
The post in question has been subject to a minor edit that may in fact resolve some of this criticism
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Bolleux
Five livers,
Not sure who you claim to work for, but I am a CX 744 pilot and if I felt the need to learn all the details of this incident, or any others, to enhance "flight safety"; all I need to do is go up to Corporate Safety and ask. Equally, go to the 3rd and ask. Further, hunt out a user friendly C&T and ask......the info is there and always has been.
Admittedly, little information was available initially on this because investigations were ongoing and I feel, again as a CX pilot, that is right and proper.
Me thinks your motives are not genuine.
Not sure who you claim to work for, but I am a CX 744 pilot and if I felt the need to learn all the details of this incident, or any others, to enhance "flight safety"; all I need to do is go up to Corporate Safety and ask. Equally, go to the 3rd and ask. Further, hunt out a user friendly C&T and ask......the info is there and always has been.
Admittedly, little information was available initially on this because investigations were ongoing and I feel, again as a CX pilot, that is right and proper.
Me thinks your motives are not genuine.
Liam,
I can't agree with you as I know for a fact that the info from flight safety re this incident was not available until very recently. The info "was certainly not there and never had been" for the line pilot.I don't agree with the rabid stories in the press but feel our culture of secrecy not only brings this publicity down on us but endangers CX flight safety.
I can't agree with you as I know for a fact that the info from flight safety re this incident was not available until very recently. The info "was certainly not there and never had been" for the line pilot.I don't agree with the rabid stories in the press but feel our culture of secrecy not only brings this publicity down on us but endangers CX flight safety.
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BusyB,
You draw your conclusion from what you experience as do I.
I first heard about this event from the Chief Pilot's weekly briefing emailed to my Groupwise the Friday immediately following this event. That weekend I flew with a Checker who discussed the event, admittedly not with all the details, but enough to impress upon me the major learning points (such as they are). I understand Corporate Safety had the FDAP computer re-creation with ATC transmission overlay and a summary of the Pilots' re-collections available for viewing about 5 weeks after the event.
I do not consider the above to be a "culture of secrecy".
Further, the recent 251/55 Engine Fire resulted in a lot of info being released to the Crews/Rolls Royce and Boeing within hours; curiously neither yourself nor Flexible Response make reference to this incident; presumably because it cannot reinforce your somewhat jaundiced views.
You draw your conclusion from what you experience as do I.
I first heard about this event from the Chief Pilot's weekly briefing emailed to my Groupwise the Friday immediately following this event. That weekend I flew with a Checker who discussed the event, admittedly not with all the details, but enough to impress upon me the major learning points (such as they are). I understand Corporate Safety had the FDAP computer re-creation with ATC transmission overlay and a summary of the Pilots' re-collections available for viewing about 5 weeks after the event.
I do not consider the above to be a "culture of secrecy".
Further, the recent 251/55 Engine Fire resulted in a lot of info being released to the Crews/Rolls Royce and Boeing within hours; curiously neither yourself nor Flexible Response make reference to this incident; presumably because it cannot reinforce your somewhat jaundiced views.
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Liam Ditto!
I am also a CX744 Pilot and I can honestly say that the Telegraph's report was mostly hyped up rubbish.
We are given very GOOD training and information by the company when it comes to safety. However from what I know right now after speaking to a senior C & T'er is that an investigation is still on going and until its complete there is not much else they will say which I agree with 100%
Like Liam says the info is there if you want to go and find it, a quick trip to Corporate Safety will do the trick!
Cathay may have ups and downs with its staff now and again with regards to industrial issues but it still has to be said that Cathays safety standard is exemplory and it enrages me to see people trying to put this into question!
I am also a CX744 Pilot and I can honestly say that the Telegraph's report was mostly hyped up rubbish.
We are given very GOOD training and information by the company when it comes to safety. However from what I know right now after speaking to a senior C & T'er is that an investigation is still on going and until its complete there is not much else they will say which I agree with 100%
Like Liam says the info is there if you want to go and find it, a quick trip to Corporate Safety will do the trick!
Cathay may have ups and downs with its staff now and again with regards to industrial issues but it still has to be said that Cathays safety standard is exemplory and it enrages me to see people trying to put this into question!
Thread Starter
disconnected wrote the following excellent comment on the MK Cargo accident thread:
Food for thought...
This will probably turn out to be a simple but awful error. Personally I suspect insufficient runway for the weight and this can obviously happen in several ways. However let’s leave that to the investigation.
At this point one could blame the crew and perhaps the controller then be done with the business. However thankfully we tend to look further these days and examine the deeper issues. With MK this is going to be some can of worms.
Does the company have a safety culture? Any discussion with the crews will show this to be a joke. They fly long and hard and the company only does what is needed to cosmetically satisfy whoever. You get paid for what you fly. No fly – no pay. Complain too much and someone else gets the trips. This can be very persuading when living as a white in Mugabe’s Zimbabwe and trying to keep up a family, education etc. when clearly the state takes pleasure in persecuting you. MK took advantage of all this. Cheap crews with a noose around their necks.
Does the company have a safety department? Sure they called in a few boys from Cathay to fix up the procedures. Procedures count for nothing if the safety culture is not there. It has to start from the top. It has to be sincere. The accident rate shows just how successful this half hearted attempt has been. A large part of the greatly proceduralised fleet is now a charred wreck. However the same hasn’t happened to Cathay. I wonder why. MK just didn’t get it. The only true belief was in the bottom line.
Is there an incident reporting method? Analysis of incident data? I doubt it. The real stories in MKs years of operation are out there. Ask around. They defy belief in some cases. The real tribute to the flying skills of their crews is that there were not more accidents. If someone had kept track of a penalty free incident reporting system, the flags would have been very large and very red.
Was there a Confidential Human Factors system? Who has time for that when there is money to be made? Flying tired, many days away from home, where the wife and kids could be raped, or murdered, where nothing much works and there is often no where else to go, and no other job at all to be had, is a severe strain. “Everyone else in the company handles it so stop whining” Putting a brave face on it however does not mitigate the underlying issues.
The only good thing about this unfortunate affair is that it happened in a country whose authorities can be taken seriously. I wish the first 2 accidents had, then perhaps 8 men would still be alive today. I also hope this flags the semi regulated carriers from Africa that fly over our heads every night. Let them fly in their own corrupt regimes but not over densely populated areas in the civilised world whose authorities have little idea of what is really going on inside the aircraft.
This is so typical of managements that get caught up in the bottom line and blinker themselves to the realities of aviation. So typical of inexperienced companies who arrogantly think that years of aviation experience in these matters is just the stuff of text books and awkward legislators.
Well now we have the bottom line: 7 good men killed, 1 beautiful aircraft written off, 1 ugly investigation and hopefully an expensive law suit to provide for the women and children who now have to go it alone in Zimbabwe.
At this point one could blame the crew and perhaps the controller then be done with the business. However thankfully we tend to look further these days and examine the deeper issues. With MK this is going to be some can of worms.
Does the company have a safety culture? Any discussion with the crews will show this to be a joke. They fly long and hard and the company only does what is needed to cosmetically satisfy whoever. You get paid for what you fly. No fly – no pay. Complain too much and someone else gets the trips. This can be very persuading when living as a white in Mugabe’s Zimbabwe and trying to keep up a family, education etc. when clearly the state takes pleasure in persecuting you. MK took advantage of all this. Cheap crews with a noose around their necks.
Does the company have a safety department? Sure they called in a few boys from Cathay to fix up the procedures. Procedures count for nothing if the safety culture is not there. It has to start from the top. It has to be sincere. The accident rate shows just how successful this half hearted attempt has been. A large part of the greatly proceduralised fleet is now a charred wreck. However the same hasn’t happened to Cathay. I wonder why. MK just didn’t get it. The only true belief was in the bottom line.
Is there an incident reporting method? Analysis of incident data? I doubt it. The real stories in MKs years of operation are out there. Ask around. They defy belief in some cases. The real tribute to the flying skills of their crews is that there were not more accidents. If someone had kept track of a penalty free incident reporting system, the flags would have been very large and very red.
Was there a Confidential Human Factors system? Who has time for that when there is money to be made? Flying tired, many days away from home, where the wife and kids could be raped, or murdered, where nothing much works and there is often no where else to go, and no other job at all to be had, is a severe strain. “Everyone else in the company handles it so stop whining” Putting a brave face on it however does not mitigate the underlying issues.
The only good thing about this unfortunate affair is that it happened in a country whose authorities can be taken seriously. I wish the first 2 accidents had, then perhaps 8 men would still be alive today. I also hope this flags the semi regulated carriers from Africa that fly over our heads every night. Let them fly in their own corrupt regimes but not over densely populated areas in the civilised world whose authorities have little idea of what is really going on inside the aircraft.
This is so typical of managements that get caught up in the bottom line and blinker themselves to the realities of aviation. So typical of inexperienced companies who arrogantly think that years of aviation experience in these matters is just the stuff of text books and awkward legislators.
Well now we have the bottom line: 7 good men killed, 1 beautiful aircraft written off, 1 ugly investigation and hopefully an expensive law suit to provide for the women and children who now have to go it alone in Zimbabwe.
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No smoke without fire
I read with interest the posts here. I would like to add the following about CX - I work for them at LHR as an Engineer 1 :-
I have worked for CX for a long time and they used to be a good employer but I am beginning to wonder. There have been several safety related incidents of late which the company have been slow to acknowledge, some have been discussed on this website. There are many more to which you will not be aware - yet !
Three or four years ago we employed a bunch of ex (rather large airline based at LHR) employees. It appears that CX stitched them up and it was not long before many became quite vocal, the most serious transgression was that they were "sold" the wrong pension scheme at interview. One of the more outspoken of the lot was trying to get a T.U recognised at LHR and was refusing to work some of the more "unsociable" shifts (they were pretty horrendous and bordering on unsafe/illegal). The usual pressure was applied but this guy was unnerved. Unbeknown to CX he had also saved up a bundle of very incriminating evidence of some safety related incidents, including a hard landing over the MM limit which was deferred without authority and a B744 oxygen leak that maintrol had hidden in an MADD (as was the landing) do you pilot guys have free access to the MADD system? CX did not have much choice but to get rid of him but they made rather a hash of it presenting him with more reason to take CX to tribunal, which he is doing - in January 05.
I think this is known as a "whistleblowing" case and I am sure the guy in question will go out of his way to involve the media from what I have heard. He also had a report printed in "feedback" and guess what - the CAA agreed with him, this does not bode well
The point is where does this stop, incidents appear to be frequently covered up for want of a better way to put it. Its O.K freeing CX of what it calls trouble makers but the damage is being done. I did not particularly get on with the guy but he has a point, I am not comfortable with the attitude taken toward safety and employee wellbeing at present. Of the 10 or so guys we employed at the time (all high quality with all the license cover we needed) there is only a couple left. Most have seen what is going on and thought better of it.
I guess the point of this is that we at CX HAVE to change our thinking and be more open, if we do nothing and there is an incident we could go down very easily without state help. There are many out there waiting to shoot us down. This is down to all employed at CX to change the attitude of management.
I have worked for CX for a long time and they used to be a good employer but I am beginning to wonder. There have been several safety related incidents of late which the company have been slow to acknowledge, some have been discussed on this website. There are many more to which you will not be aware - yet !
Three or four years ago we employed a bunch of ex (rather large airline based at LHR) employees. It appears that CX stitched them up and it was not long before many became quite vocal, the most serious transgression was that they were "sold" the wrong pension scheme at interview. One of the more outspoken of the lot was trying to get a T.U recognised at LHR and was refusing to work some of the more "unsociable" shifts (they were pretty horrendous and bordering on unsafe/illegal). The usual pressure was applied but this guy was unnerved. Unbeknown to CX he had also saved up a bundle of very incriminating evidence of some safety related incidents, including a hard landing over the MM limit which was deferred without authority and a B744 oxygen leak that maintrol had hidden in an MADD (as was the landing) do you pilot guys have free access to the MADD system? CX did not have much choice but to get rid of him but they made rather a hash of it presenting him with more reason to take CX to tribunal, which he is doing - in January 05.
I think this is known as a "whistleblowing" case and I am sure the guy in question will go out of his way to involve the media from what I have heard. He also had a report printed in "feedback" and guess what - the CAA agreed with him, this does not bode well
The point is where does this stop, incidents appear to be frequently covered up for want of a better way to put it. Its O.K freeing CX of what it calls trouble makers but the damage is being done. I did not particularly get on with the guy but he has a point, I am not comfortable with the attitude taken toward safety and employee wellbeing at present. Of the 10 or so guys we employed at the time (all high quality with all the license cover we needed) there is only a couple left. Most have seen what is going on and thought better of it.
I guess the point of this is that we at CX HAVE to change our thinking and be more open, if we do nothing and there is an incident we could go down very easily without state help. There are many out there waiting to shoot us down. This is down to all employed at CX to change the attitude of management.
