What GPS?
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What GPS?
To my surprise this doesn't seem to have been asked here before (or else I can't work search 
). Anyway, I was chatting to an friend who is looking to buy a GPS for use while flying a spamcan around the south of England. I know nothing about them and he is offline, but I said that I knew a place to ask....
Budget will stretch to around the price of a Garmin GPS195 (i.e. roughly £700) but he would prefer to spend less. It needs to be handheld as he rents aircraft, and other priorities are ease of use and ability to run off batteries. Moving map would be 'nice' but he isn't sure if it is worth the money.
Obvious candidates are the Garmin GPS195 and GPS-III Pilot and the Bendix/King Skymap II (although my research runs no further than the Harry Mendelssohn ad on the back page of Pilot )
Thoughts?
Cheers
). Anyway, I was chatting to an friend who is looking to buy a GPS for use while flying a spamcan around the south of England. I know nothing about them and he is offline, but I said that I knew a place to ask....Budget will stretch to around the price of a Garmin GPS195 (i.e. roughly £700) but he would prefer to spend less. It needs to be handheld as he rents aircraft, and other priorities are ease of use and ability to run off batteries. Moving map would be 'nice' but he isn't sure if it is worth the money.
Obvious candidates are the Garmin GPS195 and GPS-III Pilot and the Bendix/King Skymap II (although my research runs no further than the Harry Mendelssohn ad on the back page of Pilot
)Thoughts?
Cheers
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I've been using a Symap II (c. £400) for six months now in rented aircraft and love it. I strap it to my left leg and prefer the large size screen as it's easy to see at a quick glance, therefore allowing more time to look outside. Before choosing this one I got hold of the screen sizes of all in my price range and made little cardboard blanks to scale. The Skymap II was a clear winner here. The moving map is great after being given an ATC induced diversion and it's a fantastic back-up to traditional navigation methods.
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Cat.S - do you have to use a remote antenna or does it work fine in your typical spamcan without? It looks to have a nice size screen but I'd hate sitting in a cats cradle of wires.
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Of course, these should only be used as backup to situational awareness obtained using other aids like NDBs , but if he doesn't want to spend too much cash and when all else fails still know exactly where he is, you cannot beat
Garmin 12XL
You can block the signals just by putting it between your legs! They do sell external antenna for a huge percentage of the cost of the actual unit.
, but if he doesn't want to spend too much cash and when all else fails still know exactly where he is, you cannot beatGarmin 12XL
You can block the signals just by putting it between your legs! They do sell external antenna for a huge percentage of the cost of the actual unit.
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Have been using a GPS 111 pilot. the dogs B*!!*cks. Capability vs price very very good. If you can see the sceen (Other kit has bigger screens) then I can find very little wrong. Have been all over the world with one
Regards
Wide
Regards
Wide
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Whilst keeping the map as my primary means of nav, I have had a GPSIII for a few months and can't fault it (except my bungy fingers and the little buttons sometimes come into conflict). I have it sitting on the right hand side of the cowling and generally only ever use it to confirm my position or, more often, help work out ETA's and drift.
It has gone loopy on me a couple of times, once when coming back to a small field in the states with less than perfect vis and I knew it was pointing at least 30degress too far right. I ignored and got back safely. They're not perfect but they're superb in ridding the nagging doubts about my own navigation. I rarely fly without one now and the GPSIII is a nice compromise between functionality and battery life. I get 10 hrs or so from 4 AA's.
If you fly high wing, I'd recommend getting an aerial extension but haven't needed it in low wings. The only other accessory I ever use is the bean bag mount. Well worth the extra £10.
It has gone loopy on me a couple of times, once when coming back to a small field in the states with less than perfect vis and I knew it was pointing at least 30degress too far right. I ignored and got back safely. They're not perfect but they're superb in ridding the nagging doubts about my own navigation. I rarely fly without one now and the GPSIII is a nice compromise between functionality and battery life. I get 10 hrs or so from 4 AA's.
If you fly high wing, I'd recommend getting an aerial extension but haven't needed it in low wings. The only other accessory I ever use is the bean bag mount. Well worth the extra £10.
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I use a 'Pilot 111' in the Chippy, velcrod onto the RH side of the coaming using a small wooden 'former', shaped underneath to fit the curve of the coaming, and flat on top for the Garmin mount.
It works a treat. Very useful for groundspeed and reporting point estimates, and as a back-up confirmation of position. I only once saw it fail - in an AA5 over the Lake District. We had 2 'Pilot 111's on board, and both went 'zero signal' from Morcambe Bay to the Solway Firth - so don't rely on it!
SSD
It works a treat. Very useful for groundspeed and reporting point estimates, and as a back-up confirmation of position. I only once saw it fail - in an AA5 over the Lake District. We had 2 'Pilot 111's on board, and both went 'zero signal' from Morcambe Bay to the Solway Firth - so don't rely on it!
SSD
Why do it if it's not fun?
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If money's an issue, tell your friend to spend his hard-earned cash on flying instead!
I've logged nearly 10 hours in my Europa so far, the first aircraft I've flown with a GPS. (Well, second actually, but the first was a rental that I didn't have use of for very long, so never bothered to learn to use the GPS.) Already, I've noticed myself becoming very lazy, and refering to the GPS instead of the chart. And, as a result of that, I'm far less certain of where I am. Yes, I did say "less certain of where I am" - the GPS is fine for getting you to an airfield, or finding a motorway, but as soon as you move away from the features which are on the GPS, situational awareness goes downhill very quickly, in my limited experience - and it'll show when your pax start asking what that town is down there, or how far you are from something which is off the edge of your moving map.
I'm now getting into the habit of selecting a mode on the GPS which doesn't include any position information, so that I'm not tempted to "cheat". No doubt that GPS can be a useful backup, but I don't like them. Unfortunately, I can't turn mine off, since it doubles as a radio. (It's a Garmin 430, by the way - so not suitable for your friend since it's not hand-held.) If it was my choice, I'd put a couple of VOR/DMEs and an ADF in an aircraft, and, for VFR flying, would only turn them on if I became lost.
Sorry,
FFF
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I've logged nearly 10 hours in my Europa so far, the first aircraft I've flown with a GPS. (Well, second actually, but the first was a rental that I didn't have use of for very long, so never bothered to learn to use the GPS.) Already, I've noticed myself becoming very lazy, and refering to the GPS instead of the chart. And, as a result of that, I'm far less certain of where I am. Yes, I did say "less certain of where I am" - the GPS is fine for getting you to an airfield, or finding a motorway, but as soon as you move away from the features which are on the GPS, situational awareness goes downhill very quickly, in my limited experience - and it'll show when your pax start asking what that town is down there, or how far you are from something which is off the edge of your moving map.
I'm now getting into the habit of selecting a mode on the GPS which doesn't include any position information, so that I'm not tempted to "cheat". No doubt that GPS can be a useful backup, but I don't like them. Unfortunately, I can't turn mine off, since it doubles as a radio. (It's a Garmin 430, by the way - so not suitable for your friend since it's not hand-held.) If it was my choice, I'd put a couple of VOR/DMEs and an ADF in an aircraft, and, for VFR flying, would only turn them on if I became lost.
Sorry,
FFF
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Get a cheap Garmin eTrek for around £100, then go to aeroplanner.com and download 'data chunks'. These data chunks contain waypoints of VORs / NDBs / Airports / VRPs / intersections etc etc. Once these are on your GPS you do not need a 'proper' moving map, and in fact they're probably more accurate than most moving maps you get on handheld GPS's. It also saves you getting a Pooleys GPS companion and typing all the WPs in.
I did a comparison between the handheld eTrek with waypoints from Aeroplanner and a (cantrememberthenameof) panel mounted IFR certified GPS last time I was in the US. It was spot on.
The eTrek is 12 channel same as most GPS's on the market so accuracy will be or should be exactly the same as a more expensive model. If you're feeling particulaly flashy, spend another £100 and get the eTrek with barometric altimeter built in...
Cheers
EA
I did a comparison between the handheld eTrek with waypoints from Aeroplanner and a (cantrememberthenameof) panel mounted IFR certified GPS last time I was in the US. It was spot on.
The eTrek is 12 channel same as most GPS's on the market so accuracy will be or should be exactly the same as a more expensive model. If you're feeling particulaly flashy, spend another £100 and get the eTrek with barometric altimeter built in...
Cheers
EA
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(Aaaagh - first reply lost when PPRuNe decided to log me out when I hit Submit Reply 
)
Thanks for the feedback so far. It seems to be a choice between the GPS-III and the Skymap-II, which I guess I expected. We're going to go and have a play in Transair at the weekend, but it's not easy to guess if something that's cool in the shop is still so good in the cockpit, so it's good to have some views.
FFF - Money isn't too much of an issue, and the budget just came from skimming through the Harry M. advert and seeing what price caused him to start to sweat. He's a fairly recent PPL with 70-something hours, and is just starting to look at leaving the local area and those familiar airfields visited during the course of the PPL. The club aircraft all have VOR/DME and ADF equipment, but GPS is just something else to hold his hand.
(edit: forgot to ask, what is the difference between an 'Aviation' GPS and an 'Outdoor' GPS such as the 12XL linked above. The aviation ones seem far more expensive - no surprise there - and presumably come with waypoints loaded, but is there any practical difference if you just need position and distance/track to waypoint?)
Oh, and I know that real pilots only navigate using a sextant and one of John Harrison's chronometers...
)Thanks for the feedback so far. It seems to be a choice between the GPS-III and the Skymap-II, which I guess I expected. We're going to go and have a play in Transair at the weekend, but it's not easy to guess if something that's cool in the shop is still so good in the cockpit, so it's good to have some views.
FFF - Money isn't too much of an issue, and the budget just came from skimming through the Harry M. advert and seeing what price caused him to start to sweat. He's a fairly recent PPL with 70-something hours, and is just starting to look at leaving the local area and those familiar airfields visited during the course of the PPL. The club aircraft all have VOR/DME and ADF equipment, but GPS is just something else to hold his hand.
(edit: forgot to ask, what is the difference between an 'Aviation' GPS and an 'Outdoor' GPS such as the 12XL linked above. The aviation ones seem far more expensive - no surprise there - and presumably come with waypoints loaded, but is there any practical difference if you just need position and distance/track to waypoint?)
Oh, and I know that real pilots only navigate using a sextant and one of John Harrison's chronometers...
Last edited by Evo7; 17th Jun 2002 at 10:06.
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GPS
THe Garmin 100 has been around for a few years and are appearing on the secondhand market for less than £200.
A terrific piece of kit - no moving map or database but kids stuff to programme/ use. These were quite expensive new.
Mine got me to Stockholm and back the other week.
THe Pilot 3 is incredible value - I have just bought one to stick in my pocket if my map blows out of my open cockpit plane.
They do make you lazy - I make a point of not using mine occasionaly ( usually when I am staying in the circuit...!)
So - if you want new - Pilot 3. If you can find a 100 - go for that and spend the change on flying.
A terrific piece of kit - no moving map or database but kids stuff to programme/ use. These were quite expensive new.
Mine got me to Stockholm and back the other week.
THe Pilot 3 is incredible value - I have just bought one to stick in my pocket if my map blows out of my open cockpit plane.
They do make you lazy - I make a point of not using mine occasionaly ( usually when I am staying in the circuit...!)
So - if you want new - Pilot 3. If you can find a 100 - go for that and spend the change on flying.
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Evo7
I think that the difference between Garmin GPS models, are:
"Outdoors" is designed mainly for walkers, climbers, etc, & shows towns, roads, footpaths etc.
"Aviation" are designed for aircraft use, & has a database, of airfields, controlled airspace, etc. You can then buy regular database updates from Garmin, for a fee, for your GPS.
The "Aviation" model is well worth the extra cost, as it gives you far more relevant information, eg nearest airfield, (if you are having a panic!) & whether you are about to infringe controlled airspace. Without the aviation database, you would need to do a lot of data imputting yourself, in order to get anything useful out of it.
I think that the difference between Garmin GPS models, are:
"Outdoors" is designed mainly for walkers, climbers, etc, & shows towns, roads, footpaths etc.
"Aviation" are designed for aircraft use, & has a database, of airfields, controlled airspace, etc. You can then buy regular database updates from Garmin, for a fee, for your GPS.
The "Aviation" model is well worth the extra cost, as it gives you far more relevant information, eg nearest airfield, (if you are having a panic!) & whether you are about to infringe controlled airspace. Without the aviation database, you would need to do a lot of data imputting yourself, in order to get anything useful out of it.
The Original Whirly
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I'm very happy with my GPS III Pilot which I've had for several years. It can make you lazy, but I find it invaluable in the following circumstances:
1) Your route is taking you very close to controlled airspace that you'd rather not infringe.
2) You'd planned to fly overhead an airfield; the cloudbase won't let you, and they tell you to route around; you think you can judge 2 miles fairly accurately, but you'd like to be certain.
3) The weather's deteriorated unexpectedly; it's safe to fly, but nav is difficult and you'd rather not get too overloaded when you may need your wits about you should things get worse.
4) You're overloaded in some other way, eg you just scared yourself by getting too near another aircraft or something similar; why compound things by getting lost too; switch on the GPS and make things easy for yourself while you calm down.
Otherwise, I just carry it in case I need it. I don't know how to do anything other than follow the moving map; I did once, but I forgot through lack of practice. But I like visual navigation, and my way saves loads on batteries.
1) Your route is taking you very close to controlled airspace that you'd rather not infringe.
2) You'd planned to fly overhead an airfield; the cloudbase won't let you, and they tell you to route around; you think you can judge 2 miles fairly accurately, but you'd like to be certain.
3) The weather's deteriorated unexpectedly; it's safe to fly, but nav is difficult and you'd rather not get too overloaded when you may need your wits about you should things get worse.
4) You're overloaded in some other way, eg you just scared yourself by getting too near another aircraft or something similar; why compound things by getting lost too; switch on the GPS and make things easy for yourself while you calm down.
Otherwise, I just carry it in case I need it. I don't know how to do anything other than follow the moving map; I did once, but I forgot through lack of practice. But I like visual navigation, and my way saves loads on batteries.
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I'm afraid I'm with FFF and Whirly in the 'dinosaur' camp - the only time I've flown with a GPS with moving map, I spent a lot of time with my head 'down' (even though the display *was* at coaming level); some of this was tinkering with the new toy, but partly I was just being lazy.
I did use it to skirt between Southampton CTR and a Danger Area as I was flying to Thruxton - ISTR there was a relatively narrow 'corridoor' of 3-4 miles at one point that I had to be quite careful not to stray too far either way (and there were few VRPs and a fairly stiff crosstrack breeze on that day!).
Other than that, give me a good VOR and ADF and I'll be happy; I'm a bit disappointed that the group to which I belong have just voted to use this year's avionics budget to install GPS (rather than fix the broken VOR and put in an ADF!). Looks like I'll have to use another hairyplane for my IMC rating!
I did use it to skirt between Southampton CTR and a Danger Area as I was flying to Thruxton - ISTR there was a relatively narrow 'corridoor' of 3-4 miles at one point that I had to be quite careful not to stray too far either way (and there were few VRPs and a fairly stiff crosstrack breeze on that day!).
Other than that, give me a good VOR and ADF and I'll be happy; I'm a bit disappointed that the group to which I belong have just voted to use this year's avionics budget to install GPS (rather than fix the broken VOR and put in an ADF!). Looks like I'll have to use another hairyplane for my IMC rating!
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CB - I think you'll find the 'fiddle factor' goes when you get used to it - I just give mine the occasional glance, now.
Whirley - try setting up routes using waypoits. It's very simple (the Garmin handbook is not the best, but it's not too bad) and can be a great help to see how far off track you are (or not)at a glance if the cockpit load is high. This also gives you accurate continuous readout of time and distance to next waypoint - very useful for ATC estimates.
Also, in the Chippy there is no room for Pooleys etc. On the Pilot 111 just click on the airfield on the map and you get all the info - freqs, runway layout etc. Useful if you need to divert or if you fancy dropping in somewhere you hadn't previously planned.
SSD
Whirley - try setting up routes using waypoits. It's very simple (the Garmin handbook is not the best, but it's not too bad) and can be a great help to see how far off track you are (or not)at a glance if the cockpit load is high. This also gives you accurate continuous readout of time and distance to next waypoint - very useful for ATC estimates.
Also, in the Chippy there is no room for Pooleys etc. On the Pilot 111 just click on the airfield on the map and you get all the info - freqs, runway layout etc. Useful if you need to divert or if you fancy dropping in somewhere you hadn't previously planned.
SSD
Having used the GIII I bought a second hand Garmin 195 for about the same price and I think that the larger map makes it a lot easier to use.
One of the most useful functions I find is during flight planning. I can simulate my intended flight at high speed, following it on the chart and GPS. This has improved my flight planning and has increased my confidence a lot, particularly when it comes to staying out of danger areas and controlled airspace.
One of the most useful functions I find is during flight planning. I can simulate my intended flight at high speed, following it on the chart and GPS. This has improved my flight planning and has increased my confidence a lot, particularly when it comes to staying out of danger areas and controlled airspace.
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I have used the Skymap II now for a year or so and find it great as a back up. The large screen makes it easy to read, there is the issue if you plug it into the cigar lighter and having the external antena you do have a lot of wires about, but if your careful in setting it up its okay.
I have found it very useful on occasions when I have been tracking close to the danger area's near Thruxton for ensuring that I don't accidently encroach them.
As a back up I can find no better, but I do agree that you can get lazy and start to look at them to see where you are. But a little will power and keeping a constant look out is much more fun than staring at the screen
Sometimes I fly without it but most times I like to know its there just in case.
I know you said cost isn't an issue but occasionaly Harry Mendelssohn have reconditioned units at very reasonable prices, so its worth asking. All completly refurbished at the manufacturer.
I have found it very useful on occasions when I have been tracking close to the danger area's near Thruxton for ensuring that I don't accidently encroach them.
As a back up I can find no better, but I do agree that you can get lazy and start to look at them to see where you are. But a little will power and keeping a constant look out is much more fun than staring at the screen
Sometimes I fly without it but most times I like to know its there just in case.
I know you said cost isn't an issue but occasionaly Harry Mendelssohn have reconditioned units at very reasonable prices, so its worth asking. All completly refurbished at the manufacturer.
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I have just returned home from three weeks flying in Europe and just can't resist commenting on some of the ideas posted here about GPS.
Aviation like all other human endeavours evolves with time by finding new and better means of accomplishing the task.
GPS is our newest and most accurate and reliable navigation aid.
To remain fixed in the belief that VOR and ADF are the nav aids of choice would indicate that you should disregard wheels and just drag your vehicle over the ground.
To keep reguritating the mantra that one should rely on your map is just to simplistic.
A truly professional pilot will use whatever aids he / she has at their disposal to the best advantage of the task at hand.
GPS is the best aid developed to this point in time.
................
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
Aviation like all other human endeavours evolves with time by finding new and better means of accomplishing the task.
GPS is our newest and most accurate and reliable navigation aid.
To remain fixed in the belief that VOR and ADF are the nav aids of choice would indicate that you should disregard wheels and just drag your vehicle over the ground.
To keep reguritating the mantra that one should rely on your map is just to simplistic.
A truly professional pilot will use whatever aids he / she has at their disposal to the best advantage of the task at hand.
GPS is the best aid developed to this point in time.
................
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
Why do it if it's not fun?
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Chuck,
You said: "GPS is our newest and most accurate and reliable navigation aid"
I agree, but with the emphasis on the word aid. The primary means of navigation for VFR flight is looking out the window. And, as I said earlier on the thread, just having a GPS turned on, even if you don't intend to use, can decrease situational awareness by reducing the (perceived) requirement to look at ground features out the window. GPS is not as detailed as any VFR chart that I've ever seen - in many cases, it can pinpoint your position precisely in the middle of a black screen with a one or two blue lines, which doesn't help very much.
The same can not be said of the use of VORs and NDBs as nav-aids. These require cross-references to a chart, and therefore require the pilot to maintain situational awareness. Which is why I prefer them.
I have flown with "GPS Pilots" (I use the phrase in quotes to mean "a pilot who flies the GPS", as opposed to pilots who use the GPS as an aid) who have been unable to identify large towns that they were overflying, because the town was not shown on the moving-map screen. I don't want to become a "GPS Pilot", but already, after just 10 hours of using a GPS, I've noticed myself going down that route, and I'm having to take active steps (like switching the GPS to a different mode) to prevent that from happening.
FFF
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PS - Evo, sorry to hijack your thread with a pros/cons of GPS argument - it wasn't intentional, honest!
You said: "GPS is our newest and most accurate and reliable navigation aid"
I agree, but with the emphasis on the word aid. The primary means of navigation for VFR flight is looking out the window. And, as I said earlier on the thread, just having a GPS turned on, even if you don't intend to use, can decrease situational awareness by reducing the (perceived) requirement to look at ground features out the window. GPS is not as detailed as any VFR chart that I've ever seen - in many cases, it can pinpoint your position precisely in the middle of a black screen with a one or two blue lines, which doesn't help very much.
The same can not be said of the use of VORs and NDBs as nav-aids. These require cross-references to a chart, and therefore require the pilot to maintain situational awareness. Which is why I prefer them.
I have flown with "GPS Pilots" (I use the phrase in quotes to mean "a pilot who flies the GPS", as opposed to pilots who use the GPS as an aid) who have been unable to identify large towns that they were overflying, because the town was not shown on the moving-map screen. I don't want to become a "GPS Pilot", but already, after just 10 hours of using a GPS, I've noticed myself going down that route, and I'm having to take active steps (like switching the GPS to a different mode) to prevent that from happening.
FFF
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PS - Evo, sorry to hijack your thread with a pros/cons of GPS argument - it wasn't intentional, honest!