British Apathy ?
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British Apathy ?
Why is it that the general public in the UK appear to have become apathetic towards the Armed Forces?
After the recent terrorist attack on the USS Cole in Yemen, all US sportsmen wore black ribbons and a minutes silence was held. This does not happen in the UK. WHY?
US service personnel get preferential rates and military discounts at most shops, hotels etc. whereas over here government rate means the retaillers stick an extra 20% on the price. WHY?
I know the grass always appears greener but I am interested to find out if other coutries trat their armed forces any better (or worse)than we treat ours.
After the recent terrorist attack on the USS Cole in Yemen, all US sportsmen wore black ribbons and a minutes silence was held. This does not happen in the UK. WHY?
US service personnel get preferential rates and military discounts at most shops, hotels etc. whereas over here government rate means the retaillers stick an extra 20% on the price. WHY?
I know the grass always appears greener but I am interested to find out if other coutries trat their armed forces any better (or worse)than we treat ours.
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Agree with all your comments but I think there is another side to this discussion. US Servicemen appear to have greater pride in their military service than us. You only have to look at the number of associations and lobby groups that exist to support current and retired servicemen. I'm currently on exchange in the US and it's apparent that their Servicemen have greater visibility in the community, not just by wearing uniform in public, but by tutoring in schools, fund raising, charity work etc. The USAF was a sponsor of the last Super Bowl! Can you imagine: World Darts Tournament brought to you by the Queen's Glass House Deserters. It isn't that we don't do many of these activities but they are genuinely proud to represent their Unit in everything. The reasons behind our lack of collective pride is moot but, and I know it's corny, they are proud to serve. Perhaps it's their higher visibility which makes it politically acceptable to the public, if not essential, to offer discounts, preferential rates etc. Supporting the military has cross-party acceptability. They are, however, also disgustingly earnest and unquestioning at times.
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Agreed Ham,
Do you feel any esprit de corps? Or at the risk of starting a debate (especially if Marine is watching) are Americans indoctrinated with blind loyalty and not given the chance of individualism as our new PC orientated forces are. I am sure loyalty is leader trust and respect, fighting or collective action organised by the higher networks. If loyalty is not instilled from above then yes people become apathetic, they want to know their actions will be not as an individual but as a collective family group, which comes from communication.
UK forces in my experience (IMHO) accept that death etc happens and handle it with black humour and private conversations, we are not great mourners on the worlds stage as the Americans tend to be, no offence intended, but get on with life and remember comrades lost in private, and once a year at memorial services.
Apathetic, no, private, yes.
Regards N genfire
Do you feel any esprit de corps? Or at the risk of starting a debate (especially if Marine is watching) are Americans indoctrinated with blind loyalty and not given the chance of individualism as our new PC orientated forces are. I am sure loyalty is leader trust and respect, fighting or collective action organised by the higher networks. If loyalty is not instilled from above then yes people become apathetic, they want to know their actions will be not as an individual but as a collective family group, which comes from communication.
UK forces in my experience (IMHO) accept that death etc happens and handle it with black humour and private conversations, we are not great mourners on the worlds stage as the Americans tend to be, no offence intended, but get on with life and remember comrades lost in private, and once a year at memorial services.
Apathetic, no, private, yes.
Regards N genfire
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I'm afraid that the only time the Brits are happy with their military is when there is a war on......in which they feel that we ARE on the side of good over evil. The Gulf war had them clearly on our side; Kosovo not so clearly; Sierra Leone - they don't give a ****.
I should exclude from the above paragraph those Brits that were around during WW2 because they largely appreciate what we try to achieve and they value what they did to maintain freedom.
The later generations have NO concept of what its like to fight to maintain the values which they take for granted. One only has to look at the "ME, ME, ME, ME" reaction to a poxy little fuel shortage to work that out!
I should exclude from the above paragraph those Brits that were around during WW2 because they largely appreciate what we try to achieve and they value what they did to maintain freedom.
The later generations have NO concept of what its like to fight to maintain the values which they take for granted. One only has to look at the "ME, ME, ME, ME" reaction to a poxy little fuel shortage to work that out!
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Ham,
Thanks for your prompt reply. Although I am inclined to agree with some of Ns comments regarding indoctrination etc I still have to wonder what is the driving force in the 'proud to serve' attitude. I don't think that the loyalty debate is very relevant here as it is more of an internal issue and not one on which the Joe Public has any opinion.(how we perceive ourselves is another aguement entirely).
More comments please.
Wibble
Ed
Thanks for your prompt reply. Although I am inclined to agree with some of Ns comments regarding indoctrination etc I still have to wonder what is the driving force in the 'proud to serve' attitude. I don't think that the loyalty debate is very relevant here as it is more of an internal issue and not one on which the Joe Public has any opinion.(how we perceive ourselves is another aguement entirely).
More comments please.
Wibble
Ed
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As an ex-officer I have met a mix of civvies who have had nothing to do with the Services and other ex-servicemen / women. Here's a few rocks in the pond:
Of recent campaigns there is a view that neither Bosnia / Kosovo or Sierra Leone had anything to do with us so why should we pay £X millions to police them / bomb them back into the stone age?
The Armed Forces are now a minor employer in national terms, therefore Joe Public is unlikely to have anyone even in his extended family who is serving.
Of the ex-servicemen I meet, a (small but significant) majority have not left with a positive view of the institution, even some who reached high rank. Many would counsel their sons / daughters against joining. The treatment of Gulf War vets (and the publicity surrounding the Govt's hand-washing) has, I suspect contributed greatly to this.
Joe Public spends around £22Bn annually to fund the mindless bureaucracy of the MoD which, in press report after press report seems to have made an art form of p1ssing it down the drain while fewer and fewer Servicemen & women are more and more overstretched. Joe Public is sick of hearing the same old story.
Socially and culturally, the Armed Forces are seen as so far behind the times as to be increasingly alien to society in UK plc. Jeez, they only stopped being scared witless of gay people in January! As alienation increases, empathy decreases
Civvy Street nowadays is a cold, hard place. Nobody gives Joe Public a hug and a kiss for driving his white van. If you want to go and kill for the Queen, go and do it if you're daft enough, Joe'll pay you for it but don't expect anything more.
Basically, life now comes down to dosh. You earn your pennies your way and Joe'll earn his pennies his way, what more do you want?
Sad, but i'm afraid these views are increasingly common out here in the 'Real World'. Someone earlier mentioned the fuel crisis. Most people laugh at St Tony's trumped-up 'emergency' in the NHS during the last protest. If troops are used to break any future peaceful protest, I fear further alienation of Joe Public and HM Forces.
Now, if there's a threat at the door, that might be a different matter.
Of recent campaigns there is a view that neither Bosnia / Kosovo or Sierra Leone had anything to do with us so why should we pay £X millions to police them / bomb them back into the stone age?
The Armed Forces are now a minor employer in national terms, therefore Joe Public is unlikely to have anyone even in his extended family who is serving.
Of the ex-servicemen I meet, a (small but significant) majority have not left with a positive view of the institution, even some who reached high rank. Many would counsel their sons / daughters against joining. The treatment of Gulf War vets (and the publicity surrounding the Govt's hand-washing) has, I suspect contributed greatly to this.
Joe Public spends around £22Bn annually to fund the mindless bureaucracy of the MoD which, in press report after press report seems to have made an art form of p1ssing it down the drain while fewer and fewer Servicemen & women are more and more overstretched. Joe Public is sick of hearing the same old story.
Socially and culturally, the Armed Forces are seen as so far behind the times as to be increasingly alien to society in UK plc. Jeez, they only stopped being scared witless of gay people in January! As alienation increases, empathy decreases
Civvy Street nowadays is a cold, hard place. Nobody gives Joe Public a hug and a kiss for driving his white van. If you want to go and kill for the Queen, go and do it if you're daft enough, Joe'll pay you for it but don't expect anything more.
Basically, life now comes down to dosh. You earn your pennies your way and Joe'll earn his pennies his way, what more do you want?
Sad, but i'm afraid these views are increasingly common out here in the 'Real World'. Someone earlier mentioned the fuel crisis. Most people laugh at St Tony's trumped-up 'emergency' in the NHS during the last protest. If troops are used to break any future peaceful protest, I fear further alienation of Joe Public and HM Forces.
Now, if there's a threat at the door, that might be a different matter.
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I have a bit of an insight. As a 2Lt I spent time in a college in the US as part of my degree and played with the ROTC there, and my wife is American.
Americans as a whole earnestly believe that their's is the greatest country on the earth and that every right-tinking person should want to be American (indeed some in my wife's family automatically assumed that I would give up my british citizenship to become an American and live in America and where genuinely shocked to find out I wouldn't). They have a sense of pride in the country, flag, and everything American. In many ways it is a quite nieive view of the world. To them the idea of joining the forces represents being "all-American", in other words the embodyment of every aspect of American pride and culture. Their armed forces are also huge in comparison to ours, so they have a much greater sway on public opinion.
Contrats that with the British. We are cynical, disparaging as a whole, and have a tendancy to sneer at times. We view our armed forces as a necessary extravagance and to promote the ide of service earns little more than derision, let alone respect. The diminishing in public life of uniformed servicemen in the community has added to it becoming almost an underground movement. What we do have that the US don't is a cadet movement that gets young people involved and interested in service life, but sadly that too is chronically underfunded and when cmopeteing with video games and TV just does not attract the numbers of youngster it used to. The net result is we have almost forgotten the services and what we as servicemen stand for. sadly it takes a conflict to remind peopple of the role we play in saving lives as well as resolving conflict.
Americans as a whole earnestly believe that their's is the greatest country on the earth and that every right-tinking person should want to be American (indeed some in my wife's family automatically assumed that I would give up my british citizenship to become an American and live in America and where genuinely shocked to find out I wouldn't). They have a sense of pride in the country, flag, and everything American. In many ways it is a quite nieive view of the world. To them the idea of joining the forces represents being "all-American", in other words the embodyment of every aspect of American pride and culture. Their armed forces are also huge in comparison to ours, so they have a much greater sway on public opinion.
Contrats that with the British. We are cynical, disparaging as a whole, and have a tendancy to sneer at times. We view our armed forces as a necessary extravagance and to promote the ide of service earns little more than derision, let alone respect. The diminishing in public life of uniformed servicemen in the community has added to it becoming almost an underground movement. What we do have that the US don't is a cadet movement that gets young people involved and interested in service life, but sadly that too is chronically underfunded and when cmopeteing with video games and TV just does not attract the numbers of youngster it used to. The net result is we have almost forgotten the services and what we as servicemen stand for. sadly it takes a conflict to remind peopple of the role we play in saving lives as well as resolving conflict.
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Didn’t Kipling say it all over a hundred years ago in his classic poem ‘Tommy Atkins’, where he echoed the sentiments in (Sir) Edmund’s initial post almost to the letter?
The Armed Forces are a bit like the Fire Brigade – perceived by most to be a waste of money until THEIR house is on fire.
I don’t have a copy here, but if someone does and was to post it here, I don’t think the copyright police would get too upset.
The Armed Forces are a bit like the Fire Brigade – perceived by most to be a waste of money until THEIR house is on fire.
I don’t have a copy here, but if someone does and was to post it here, I don’t think the copyright police would get too upset.
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Perhaps it has got something to do with the fact that the UK is one of the few places in the world where you cannot fly your country's flag on your property, without first:
a. Obtaining planning permission.
b. Being accused of being a racist.
c. Obtaining the permission of the thought police.
a. Obtaining planning permission.
b. Being accused of being a racist.
c. Obtaining the permission of the thought police.
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Tommy
I went into a public-'ouse to get a pint o' beer,
The publican 'e up an' sez, "We serve no red-coats here."
The girls be'ind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die,
I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I:
O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, go away";
But it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play,
The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
O it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play.
I went into a theatre as sober as could be,
They gave a drunk civilian room, but 'adn't none for me;
They sent me to the gallery or round the music-'alls,
But when it comes to fightin', Lord! they'll shove me in the stalls!
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, wait outside";
But it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide,
The troopship's on the tide, my boys, the troopship's on the tide,
O it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide.
Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep
Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap;
An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit
Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit.
Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, 'ow's yer soul?"
But it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll,
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll.
We aren't no thin red 'eroes, nor we aren't no blackguards too,
But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;
An' if sometimes our conduck isn't all your fancy paints,
Why, single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints;
While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, fall be'ind",
But it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind,
There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind,
O it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind.
You talk o' better food for us, an' schools, an' fires, an' all:
We'll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.
Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face
The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace.
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!"
But it's "Saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot;
An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
An' Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool -- you bet that Tommy sees!
I went into a public-'ouse to get a pint o' beer,
The publican 'e up an' sez, "We serve no red-coats here."
The girls be'ind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die,
I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I:
O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, go away";
But it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play,
The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
O it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play.
I went into a theatre as sober as could be,
They gave a drunk civilian room, but 'adn't none for me;
They sent me to the gallery or round the music-'alls,
But when it comes to fightin', Lord! they'll shove me in the stalls!
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, wait outside";
But it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide,
The troopship's on the tide, my boys, the troopship's on the tide,
O it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide.
Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep
Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap;
An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit
Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit.
Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, 'ow's yer soul?"
But it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll,
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll.
We aren't no thin red 'eroes, nor we aren't no blackguards too,
But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;
An' if sometimes our conduck isn't all your fancy paints,
Why, single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints;
While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, fall be'ind",
But it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind,
There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind,
O it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind.
You talk o' better food for us, an' schools, an' fires, an' all:
We'll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.
Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face
The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace.
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!"
But it's "Saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot;
An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
An' Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool -- you bet that Tommy sees!
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Thanks, RFCC. That particular Kipling poem is truly timeless.
I suspect the situation he describes will always be so. And the ones who'll cry the loudest if the shyte ever hits the fan thick enough to cause "them at 'ome" more discomfort than a not full petrol tank will be the very same ones who decry Defence expenditure the loudest and look down their noses at those in khaki, navy blue and light blue.
Look on the bright side. In my days in uniform, during the Vietnam conflict, quite a few of "them at 'ome" in Dununda literally spat on us. I don't think you've had that pleasure in the UK yet.
I suspect the situation he describes will always be so. And the ones who'll cry the loudest if the shyte ever hits the fan thick enough to cause "them at 'ome" more discomfort than a not full petrol tank will be the very same ones who decry Defence expenditure the loudest and look down their noses at those in khaki, navy blue and light blue.
Look on the bright side. In my days in uniform, during the Vietnam conflict, quite a few of "them at 'ome" in Dununda literally spat on us. I don't think you've had that pleasure in the UK yet.
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As a VRT Officer(We deal with the Space Cadets) I have to say that although we have a cracking youth organisation, we do nothing to publicise ourselves either!
The vast majority of cadets on my Squadron(s) have been recruited by their friends. In the 5 years I have been involved with the cadets as an instructor, we've been out in public 3 times. On all those occasions, we've had a large amount of interest, and a good number of new recruits with interest in the Air Force.
The problems we have are: They "Youth Club" mentality - most cadets and parents now see the ATC as a Youth Club rather than a Military Youth Organisation. There is a huge difference in attitudes between those who are interested, and those who want a Youth Club. It's very difficult to teach people who only want to chat to their mates, which puts off the people who are inetested.
Parents are just as bad - most have now had no exposure to the Military, see the Cold War as over, and see no reason for a military. In many cases now, cadets are the only sight most people get of a military uniform.
Staffing - The numbers of staff on an avarage squadron is scarily small. We used to get a fair number of staff from ex-forces, but that no longer seems to be the case. That means few staff members have any real idea what the Military is really like. I worked with the RAF for 4 years which on my squadron has given me a HUGE advantage! Would any of you lot be interested in helping when you leave?
Other factors - Funding obviously; lack of available support from the forces (not so easy to get jollies, section visits, fewer camp spaces, etc now because of increased commitments by you lot; weekend/evening jobs and schoolwork for young people; many more other (apparently) interesting things to do than there used to be! Restrictions on most adventurous activities, meaning they happen less often, and people get bored; The large number of kids who are wrapped in cotton wool or think forces/cadets sounds like "too much hard work."
As we lose potential cadets, you lot lose potential recruits, and less people are exposed to what the military do, meaning most people through ignorance become apathetic.
The vast majority of cadets on my Squadron(s) have been recruited by their friends. In the 5 years I have been involved with the cadets as an instructor, we've been out in public 3 times. On all those occasions, we've had a large amount of interest, and a good number of new recruits with interest in the Air Force.
The problems we have are: They "Youth Club" mentality - most cadets and parents now see the ATC as a Youth Club rather than a Military Youth Organisation. There is a huge difference in attitudes between those who are interested, and those who want a Youth Club. It's very difficult to teach people who only want to chat to their mates, which puts off the people who are inetested.
Parents are just as bad - most have now had no exposure to the Military, see the Cold War as over, and see no reason for a military. In many cases now, cadets are the only sight most people get of a military uniform.
Staffing - The numbers of staff on an avarage squadron is scarily small. We used to get a fair number of staff from ex-forces, but that no longer seems to be the case. That means few staff members have any real idea what the Military is really like. I worked with the RAF for 4 years which on my squadron has given me a HUGE advantage! Would any of you lot be interested in helping when you leave?
Other factors - Funding obviously; lack of available support from the forces (not so easy to get jollies, section visits, fewer camp spaces, etc now because of increased commitments by you lot; weekend/evening jobs and schoolwork for young people; many more other (apparently) interesting things to do than there used to be! Restrictions on most adventurous activities, meaning they happen less often, and people get bored; The large number of kids who are wrapped in cotton wool or think forces/cadets sounds like "too much hard work."
As we lose potential cadets, you lot lose potential recruits, and less people are exposed to what the military do, meaning most people through ignorance become apathetic.
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As an American Air Force Pilot I can vouch that the general population here in the States has a very favourable impression of the Armed Forces. It may stem from all the films, TV shows, and books that glorify our military. You may remember before WWII the US military was smaller than Portugals. I guess because of our Superpower status Americans may feel we are the tip of the spear protecting the rest of the world Etc etc etc so many percieve the military as ready to go to war at any time, hence the adulation. To touch on the point made about Americans feel they have the greatest country in the world, My Father's from Italy and since I was a boy he's told me stories of how great the US is, I grew up in New York City and most of my neighbors were not born in America, every last one expressed how fortunate they were to be in America. So in this environment its no wonder people tend to think this. Its probably because many of these people were refugees or escaping a bad situation in their homeland, So America may seem that much better in comparison. I've travelled round the world myself and there are few places I'd rather live!
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Come on chaps, lets not make a fuss and all that. Shame about the cadets though - its not a shadow of what it was when I joined on March 3rd 1988... <sigh>
However, at least when you see medals on a British Serviceman or woman you *know* that they mean something deeply important.
Lets not forget here that as a permanent member of the security council, G8, independent nuclear power, 4th largest economy in the world, Commonwealth, expeditionary military history/future, English language, educational/social/cultural leading light we *actually* punch well above our weight and rightly so.
WWW
However, at least when you see medals on a British Serviceman or woman you *know* that they mean something deeply important.
Lets not forget here that as a permanent member of the security council, G8, independent nuclear power, 4th largest economy in the world, Commonwealth, expeditionary military history/future, English language, educational/social/cultural leading light we *actually* punch well above our weight and rightly so.
WWW
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Hey, Roc.
You've got a good point about American culture being built on immigrants coming from somewhere they wanted to escape from, so naturally they think America MUST be the best country in the world. Its just a shame that in the year 2000 so few Americans realise the quality of life in much of the rest of the world has caught up with them. (And don't cite high US employment and income levels. Have you seen the cost of health care and state, local and federal taxes lately? Plus, what's a summer afternoon's boat ride along the upper Thames worth?)
Having lived in the US for 16 years (and raised kids there) I love the place and the people, but frankly I'm glad I'm living back in the UK. I don't feel obliged to shout out my patriotism every day of the year. Brits run themselves down, but compared to American insecurity they have a deep sense of who they are in a tight little isle full of history and beauty. I know it sounds corny but when you consider the Brits could just sit back like the Greeks or Italians and rest on the achievements of empire over the last 450 years its actually amazing there's such a huge amount of international dynamism here.
Interesting that the US government makes you give up your US citizenship if you take up another one, whereas the British government assumes its nationals wouldn't dream of not being British, and requires a Brit to actually renounce his citizenship in front of one of Her Majesty's representatives before he loses it.
You've got a good point about American culture being built on immigrants coming from somewhere they wanted to escape from, so naturally they think America MUST be the best country in the world. Its just a shame that in the year 2000 so few Americans realise the quality of life in much of the rest of the world has caught up with them. (And don't cite high US employment and income levels. Have you seen the cost of health care and state, local and federal taxes lately? Plus, what's a summer afternoon's boat ride along the upper Thames worth?)
Having lived in the US for 16 years (and raised kids there) I love the place and the people, but frankly I'm glad I'm living back in the UK. I don't feel obliged to shout out my patriotism every day of the year. Brits run themselves down, but compared to American insecurity they have a deep sense of who they are in a tight little isle full of history and beauty. I know it sounds corny but when you consider the Brits could just sit back like the Greeks or Italians and rest on the achievements of empire over the last 450 years its actually amazing there's such a huge amount of international dynamism here.
Interesting that the US government makes you give up your US citizenship if you take up another one, whereas the British government assumes its nationals wouldn't dream of not being British, and requires a Brit to actually renounce his citizenship in front of one of Her Majesty's representatives before he loses it.
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And just to add insult to injury Tony Bliar and his cronies are about to make things worse by ordering British forces to strike break any future petrol blockade. Now Joe Public will not remember us as war fighting heroes but as strike breakers delivering petrol in a protest against high fuel taxes that most of us probably support!!! Thats going to go down really well with Joe - NOT!!!
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Metman, While this is a bit off topic (but seeing as you brought it up) you are in fact quite right. I have an ACF unit in my TA centre which I ran for a while alongside the TA troop. I found the adult instructors were on the whole commited, but many were people who had made nothing of their lives and used the ACF as a means of exercising some form of authority over others, namely teenagers. Some of the supposed officers themselves were total no-marks in the army often doing 3 years as a private and then years later taking an ACF commission enter the land of dilusion and actually try and throw weight around on TA and regular soldiers and officers. Sad really, but there you go. Kids are really more switched on than most adults take them for and see through all of this posturing. Unless the adult staff are any good and are focussed on the kids in questions, I am afraid Metman, you won't make muchg progress. You are very right about public exposure though. May I suggest a "friendly offensive" PR tactic and build up a list of contacts from your Dep Lord Lt to newspapers, school teachers/heads, and anyone else who cares to listen. Keep in regular contact even if nothing is going on, and get them involved. Annual prize givings are a bonus, and if a photographer from your local news paper gets interested because the DLL is there, all the better. Good look with it, I enjoyed the time I spent with the cadets and in time may well go back and do some more.
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The Kiwis paid respects for a young Army chap that was killed on duty in operations in East Timor recently. The International Rugby crowd paid tribute before the game. The incident was front page news etc.. The PM was openly upset but proud to be a Kiwi. So for a small country, they appeared patriotic. Good on ‘em and condolences to the family of the chap that was killed.
I agree with the sentiment about the yanks, but some other countries do have a heart that extends to the military, even though the military (especially in the New Zealand’s case) is having the heart ripped out of it. (Cancellation of an F-16 order, no more money on P3 capability [interesting for a South Pacific 'power'], no more upgrades to the A4s, [a jet that will soon be bulldozed off the end of the tarmac - poor lads].
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As a former member of both the British and NZ forces I can confirm that the NZ forces are held in much higher regard by the public than in the UK.
However, this higher profile can be conributed to a major difference between the two countries -mainly the security issue. UK forces personnel appear to have adopted a much lower profile due to the risks of being targetted by terroist activity, and I believe this has a lot to do with the perceived "apathy" in that country.
However, this higher profile can be conributed to a major difference between the two countries -mainly the security issue. UK forces personnel appear to have adopted a much lower profile due to the risks of being targetted by terroist activity, and I believe this has a lot to do with the perceived "apathy" in that country.