7700 - listen to the sound of real fear
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All i can say is well done to the controller for providing such a cool calm prof help to the person.
Its an old one but its well worth making PLL students listen to this.
This guy was bloody lucky to be alive by the sounds of it. Sounds like a spin in if ever i heard it. Stall warner going gyros toppled perfect level turn in cloud going wrong.
And the boy that was speaking to him knows how to fly,prefect advice i would mind betting he was CFI as well as a ATCO.
And before you all start i have flown with quite a few ATCO's who could teach me a thing or to about flying an aircraft and they are all old school or ex UAS.
Please discuss if current training is suffcient for ATCO to deal with that call in the Uk just now.
Its an old one but its well worth making PLL students listen to this.
This guy was bloody lucky to be alive by the sounds of it. Sounds like a spin in if ever i heard it. Stall warner going gyros toppled perfect level turn in cloud going wrong.
And the boy that was speaking to him knows how to fly,prefect advice i would mind betting he was CFI as well as a ATCO.
And before you all start i have flown with quite a few ATCO's who could teach me a thing or to about flying an aircraft and they are all old school or ex UAS.
Please discuss if current training is suffcient for ATCO to deal with that call in the Uk just now.
Last edited by mad_jock; 5th Nov 2005 at 23:42.
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There's something about hearing a man start to scream like a girl that gives me the heebeejeebees. Top marks to the controller, I bet that was a far from normal day for him. I wonder whether that experience put the pilot off flying, or whether it encouraged him to get his IMC.
VC10 Rib22
VC10 Rib22
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Please discuss if current training is suffcient for ATCO to deal with that call in the Uk just now.
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wow. Kinda wish I hadn't listened to it just minutes before setting out to work... [gulp - in a calm way].
Thumbs up to the controllers in the clip. Apart from the callsigns, accents & phrasolgy the co-ordination &"procedures" sound pretty much like what we'd do (& what were trained to do) in the UK.
However, having said that, each emergency is very different from the last, with so many variables it would be impossible to train us for every single scenario.
We have good training & obviously we're checked out for aviation sense but we don't get fam-flights like my older colleauges did.
So; for those of us ATCOs without PPLs, all we have to go on is books and stories passed down from our more experienced colleauges.
Fam-flights are not atcos trying to get free flights, the more we all know about each others job the better.
New pilots visit the tower all the time & it helps for 2 reasons; they see a face to put the voice too which normally calms new pilots shaky r/t voice straightaway & 2) they see the equipment we use, its limitations & OUR limitations.
As an honest ATCO, Ive only ever been up in a PA28 & once upon a time a PA38. That is my extent of ACTUAL knowledge of workload, performance etc. All the rest is therorised & book-based training.
In summary, 'cus I've really gotta run to work now,
(1) Bring back fam-flights as ATCO training
(2) Come to the tower & OFFER ATCO training-flights (we dont want a ppl just a quick flight with Q & As - & if you're lucky we'll throw in a free landing fee)
(3) When you visit the tower, bring biscuits. Expecially if your visiting today between 10.30 & 18.00 ;-)
Bri.
Thumbs up to the controllers in the clip. Apart from the callsigns, accents & phrasolgy the co-ordination &"procedures" sound pretty much like what we'd do (& what were trained to do) in the UK.
However, having said that, each emergency is very different from the last, with so many variables it would be impossible to train us for every single scenario.
We have good training & obviously we're checked out for aviation sense but we don't get fam-flights like my older colleauges did.
So; for those of us ATCOs without PPLs, all we have to go on is books and stories passed down from our more experienced colleauges.
Fam-flights are not atcos trying to get free flights, the more we all know about each others job the better.
New pilots visit the tower all the time & it helps for 2 reasons; they see a face to put the voice too which normally calms new pilots shaky r/t voice straightaway & 2) they see the equipment we use, its limitations & OUR limitations.
As an honest ATCO, Ive only ever been up in a PA28 & once upon a time a PA38. That is my extent of ACTUAL knowledge of workload, performance etc. All the rest is therorised & book-based training.
In summary, 'cus I've really gotta run to work now,
(1) Bring back fam-flights as ATCO training
(2) Come to the tower & OFFER ATCO training-flights (we dont want a ppl just a quick flight with Q & As - & if you're lucky we'll throw in a free landing fee)
(3) When you visit the tower, bring biscuits. Expecially if your visiting today between 10.30 & 18.00 ;-)
Bri.
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That sent a massive shiver down my spine. The ATCO deserves all the accolades in the world; he remained calm and offered great assistance without maxing out the pilot with autogabble - just how do you remain that calm in that situation?
There is an interesting thread under Flight Ops, Crewing and Dispatch titled ATC Fam flights..are they welcome? (sorry not sure how to link them) where some pilot from the USA (SouthwestLUV) makes some pretty damming and derogitory comments about fam flights. This is one situation where a pilot has had cause to thank ATC for helping him to be around to make the decision whether or not to fly again. Don't get me wrong, an odd fam flight will never make us ATCOs cockpit experts but the odd snippet of information gleaned from the experience will invariably sow a seed in his/her mind which might grow with experience, interest and enthusiasm and enable them provide such vital assistance one day.
Well done mate .... you ARE a star!!
There is an interesting thread under Flight Ops, Crewing and Dispatch titled ATC Fam flights..are they welcome? (sorry not sure how to link them) where some pilot from the USA (SouthwestLUV) makes some pretty damming and derogitory comments about fam flights. This is one situation where a pilot has had cause to thank ATC for helping him to be around to make the decision whether or not to fly again. Don't get me wrong, an odd fam flight will never make us ATCOs cockpit experts but the odd snippet of information gleaned from the experience will invariably sow a seed in his/her mind which might grow with experience, interest and enthusiasm and enable them provide such vital assistance one day.
Well done mate .... you ARE a star!!
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As a flying instructor I offer students a demonstration spin after teaching them stall recovery (in VFR at about 4000').
I myself had been flying for three years before being taught how intense a spin can be.
Students generally sh*t themselves the first time and then ask to do it again once they've seen how easy it is to recover.
It's something that could save their life one day and one hell of an adrenalin rush too.
I myself had been flying for three years before being taught how intense a spin can be.
Students generally sh*t themselves the first time and then ask to do it again once they've seen how easy it is to recover.
It's something that could save their life one day and one hell of an adrenalin rush too.
Well done the guy at Dodge!
We do have one group of individuals in the UK though who are trained to provide just this kind of service, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week and they wouldn't have to call on the services of the local radar centre to find the aircraft either.
Distress & Diversion at West Drayton deal with similar, though not quite this bad for a while I think, incidents every day.
We do have one group of individuals in the UK though who are trained to provide just this kind of service, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week and they wouldn't have to call on the services of the local radar centre to find the aircraft either.
Distress & Diversion at West Drayton deal with similar, though not quite this bad for a while I think, incidents every day.
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I was a D&D controller at ScOACC for 6 years but I have never flown an aircraft nor had I ever been taught anything about it. I'd be VERY cautious about offering advice on how to fly a plane!
What Emergency Controllers are taught is to remain calm and sound calm, to offer all assistance and help to the best of their abilities.
BD
What Emergency Controllers are taught is to remain calm and sound calm, to offer all assistance and help to the best of their abilities.
BD
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Its pretty standard Eastern with someone untrained in instrument flying. If you let a student get into clouds the good ones can last about a couple of minutes before loosing it and others it takes seconds. And the little wee ****es for kids just carry striaght on because they already have 10000 hours on MS sim and you have nag them all the time to look out the window.
They go IMC suddenly realise that they are in cloud maybe for the first time. Its alot more lumpy and they start trying to fly the machine by the seat of thier pants with no reference. Then they remember my instructor said to do a 180 and fly out. All there training will be in VFR conditions under a hood with relativly few lumps.
They start the turn and automatically pull back a bit while jiggling the controls trying to react to the turb. The stall warner goes off and they shove the stick forward and then snatch it back producing a secondary stall. They have no visual reference so don't control the yaw or worse put the wrong foot in which puts it into a spin.
The plane goes into an unusual attitude and the gyro's topple after that....
I was trying to remember what my IR instructor used to whisper all the time when I was first learning the scan.
It went along the lines of
dot to altimeter, wings to DI
level the wings
dot to altimeter, wings to DI
bring the dot to the horizon
dot to altimeter, wings to DI
set your power.
dot to altimeter, wings to DI
adjust your pitch for level
dot to altimeter, wings to DI
trim
dot to altimeter, wings to DI
FREDA check
But i am sure an IR instructor could give you a better script to use.
They go IMC suddenly realise that they are in cloud maybe for the first time. Its alot more lumpy and they start trying to fly the machine by the seat of thier pants with no reference. Then they remember my instructor said to do a 180 and fly out. All there training will be in VFR conditions under a hood with relativly few lumps.
They start the turn and automatically pull back a bit while jiggling the controls trying to react to the turb. The stall warner goes off and they shove the stick forward and then snatch it back producing a secondary stall. They have no visual reference so don't control the yaw or worse put the wrong foot in which puts it into a spin.
The plane goes into an unusual attitude and the gyro's topple after that....
I was trying to remember what my IR instructor used to whisper all the time when I was first learning the scan.
It went along the lines of
dot to altimeter, wings to DI
level the wings
dot to altimeter, wings to DI
bring the dot to the horizon
dot to altimeter, wings to DI
set your power.
dot to altimeter, wings to DI
adjust your pitch for level
dot to altimeter, wings to DI
trim
dot to altimeter, wings to DI
FREDA check
But i am sure an IR instructor could give you a better script to use.
Last edited by mad_jock; 6th Nov 2005 at 17:04.
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Yep Jock ....I understand that ...but as an ATCO I wonder why they don't turn back in the first place ie don't go in there!! if you are not trained STAY OUT .
Better still ..take a train!
Better still ..take a train!
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When you visit the tower, bring biscuits. Expecially if your visiting today between 10.30 & 18.00 ;-)
What remains available on Friday will all depend on how many are left after the FI's have descended on them like a plague of locusts but I'm open to bribery to save you a few. 
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We do tell them not to go in.
Its usually a head in cockpit syndrome not aviating navigating communicating. They get focused on there charts and either drift up because they are flying with out looking or ATC give them an instruction and there head goes bang and they have a complete common sense failure. Its more a failing of not being able to do 2-3 things at once. Their handeling hasn't got to the stage that their hands and feet can look after themselves ( abit like changing gear in a car)
Or what was normaly the case with my students the local mil unit decided to put them on a vector in class G airspace or a not below instruction and the silly sods excepted it. And when it was obvious that they were going to go IMC carried on anyway.
MJ
Its usually a head in cockpit syndrome not aviating navigating communicating. They get focused on there charts and either drift up because they are flying with out looking or ATC give them an instruction and there head goes bang and they have a complete common sense failure. Its more a failing of not being able to do 2-3 things at once. Their handeling hasn't got to the stage that their hands and feet can look after themselves ( abit like changing gear in a car)
Or what was normaly the case with my students the local mil unit decided to put them on a vector in class G airspace or a not below instruction and the silly sods excepted it. And when it was obvious that they were going to go IMC carried on anyway.
MJ
Just listened to the tape and it give me cold chills to listen to the fear in that guys voice.
It brought back memories of a trip many years ago I made as a freshly minted PPL flying from Sydney (Bankstown) to Coolangatter. scud running up the coast all the way to the Queensland border I ended up in cloud just north of Lismore, and Lismore is bordered to the north by 3,000ft hills. I was in IMC bigtime with no IFR rating.
Fortunately I had just completed a night VFR rating with 15hrs of real black night flying( on several cross country training flights). Two things saved me and my 3 passengers, 1 that I was quite comfortable in being able to maintain a a basic wings level attitude as well as being able to perform rate1 climbing and descending turns on instruments as was hammered into me during the NVFR Rating. 2 Being drilled to allways having an appropriate navaid tuned, in this case the Lismore NDB as well as being able to make basic ADF Intercepts.
I remember the wave of fear that overtook me when I realised I was in IMC bigtime, it's an indescribable feeling that one has to encounter to know what it's like. Once I was able to compose myself and get on the clocks I was able to do just as I had countless times in training, do a climbing 180 , get above LSALT and intercept an appropriate track inbound to Lismore on the ADF. Over Lismore I broke out of cloud and landed at Lismore to evaluate my mistake.
I am 100% sure that the NFVR training saved my bacon. Now as an Instructor I drill my students mercylessly on recoveries from unsusual attitudes both looking out the window as well as under the hood. The Oz training syllabus has several hrs reqired under the hood required before sitting the PPL flight test. I frequently do more than that with my students as well as telling them what happened to me.
It brought back memories of a trip many years ago I made as a freshly minted PPL flying from Sydney (Bankstown) to Coolangatter. scud running up the coast all the way to the Queensland border I ended up in cloud just north of Lismore, and Lismore is bordered to the north by 3,000ft hills. I was in IMC bigtime with no IFR rating.
Fortunately I had just completed a night VFR rating with 15hrs of real black night flying( on several cross country training flights). Two things saved me and my 3 passengers, 1 that I was quite comfortable in being able to maintain a a basic wings level attitude as well as being able to perform rate1 climbing and descending turns on instruments as was hammered into me during the NVFR Rating. 2 Being drilled to allways having an appropriate navaid tuned, in this case the Lismore NDB as well as being able to make basic ADF Intercepts.
I remember the wave of fear that overtook me when I realised I was in IMC bigtime, it's an indescribable feeling that one has to encounter to know what it's like. Once I was able to compose myself and get on the clocks I was able to do just as I had countless times in training, do a climbing 180 , get above LSALT and intercept an appropriate track inbound to Lismore on the ADF. Over Lismore I broke out of cloud and landed at Lismore to evaluate my mistake.
I am 100% sure that the NFVR training saved my bacon. Now as an Instructor I drill my students mercylessly on recoveries from unsusual attitudes both looking out the window as well as under the hood. The Oz training syllabus has several hrs reqired under the hood required before sitting the PPL flight test. I frequently do more than that with my students as well as telling them what happened to me.
Last edited by Ozgrade3; 6th Nov 2005 at 18:40.
makes you wonder how he got into the situation in the first place?.
Cast stones later. Any landing you (and everyone else) can walk away from is a good landing.
Congrats to the ATC.
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Please discuss if current training is suffcient for ATCO to deal with that call in the Uk just now.
Hopefully someone in a position that can, will listen to that recording and SERIOUSLY consider reintroducing a PPL to NATS Training, or at least reintroduce the assited flying scheme.
TIO