ATC overseas
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ATC overseas
hello there....
I am going to be a new recruit at the college in buornemouth soon...and I know this seems strange to be wondering about the possibility of working abroad already (before I've even started the course), but I wanted to know what options could be available. I am interested in working in Spain especially (I have some basic spanish, which could be built upon). Is this at all possible?? I heard that we are to be issued with European licenses, so I guess the possibility of moving is pretty good.
Is area or approach the best way to go to work there??
any ideas anyone??
I'm a little in the dark here..
cheers,
Patrick Leyshon
I am going to be a new recruit at the college in buornemouth soon...and I know this seems strange to be wondering about the possibility of working abroad already (before I've even started the course), but I wanted to know what options could be available. I am interested in working in Spain especially (I have some basic spanish, which could be built upon). Is this at all possible?? I heard that we are to be issued with European licenses, so I guess the possibility of moving is pretty good.
Is area or approach the best way to go to work there??
any ideas anyone??
I'm a little in the dark here..
cheers,
Patrick Leyshon
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Don't tell any instructors that that is your aim....
Almost guarenteed to lead to instructors feeling that you are wasting there time and therefore you will mysteriously fail at a very early stage
Almost guarenteed to lead to instructors feeling that you are wasting there time and therefore you will mysteriously fail at a very early stage
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Do you have a degree from a Spanish educational establishment and Spanish citizenship ??
No ??
Tough luck for now then.
If your name really is Patrick Leyshon, I don't think you have done yourself any favours.
No ??
Tough luck for now then.
If your name really is Patrick Leyshon, I don't think you have done yourself any favours.
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I think most of us would prefer to be working overseas; I don't think my current employer would mind if I chose to do so (might help their manning-diet!!!).
However, I do agree with the other 3 pruners that you might have just made a gross f*** up (at best I reckon that you have just played your only joker - if they have such things at Hurn. I would suggest you make sure you have a winning hand next time you decide to show it).
Good luck anyway (and if you hear of any overseas jobs PM me please
However, I do agree with the other 3 pruners that you might have just made a gross f*** up (at best I reckon that you have just played your only joker - if they have such things at Hurn. I would suggest you make sure you have a winning hand next time you decide to show it).
Good luck anyway (and if you hear of any overseas jobs PM me please
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Learn to walk before you run Patrick.
The Harmonised European ATC Licence is supposed to give anyone who is a licenced ATCO and who is also an EEC National the right to work in any other EEC country.
Fine theory, and indeed, I know that there have been a number of non UK Nationals applying for jobs in the UK, but I can't see any country going out of it's way to employ a non - national when they will almost never have a shortage of willing and suitable trainees in their own state.
The Harmonised European ATC Licence is supposed to give anyone who is a licenced ATCO and who is also an EEC National the right to work in any other EEC country.
Fine theory, and indeed, I know that there have been a number of non UK Nationals applying for jobs in the UK, but I can't see any country going out of it's way to employ a non - national when they will almost never have a shortage of willing and suitable trainees in their own state.
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Don't make the mistake that a European licence allows you to work anywhere in Europe. 
The EU is preparing a directive which defines common training standards for ATC, new ratings (comparable to ICAO), and MUTUAL recognition of other states licences.
Each state will make its own legislation and will issue its own licence. But ... it is NOT a European licence. This will probably mean that an EU state must accept the licence of another EU state as proof of training and qualification, but you will still need a licence issued by that state to operate within its jurisdiction.
The EU directive is intended to improve freedom of movement of controllers between states (through common training standards and common ratings), but there is NO SUCH THING as a European ATC licence!!!
The EU is preparing a directive which defines common training standards for ATC, new ratings (comparable to ICAO), and MUTUAL recognition of other states licences.
Each state will make its own legislation and will issue its own licence. But ... it is NOT a European licence. This will probably mean that an EU state must accept the licence of another EU state as proof of training and qualification, but you will still need a licence issued by that state to operate within its jurisdiction.
The EU directive is intended to improve freedom of movement of controllers between states (through common training standards and common ratings), but there is NO SUCH THING as a European ATC licence!!!
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Not surprising the failure rate is so high at present if this is any indication of the present students' intelligence levels. I should think every instructor at every unit will be looking out for your name and know that as far as NATS is concerned you are a time-waster. The sooner we get some sort of bonding in place for students the better
As John McEnroe would have said "You can't be serious" !!
As John McEnroe would have said "You can't be serious" !!
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Correct, whoever said it,
Don't run before you can walk!
NATS will love you when you start at the college and you're remark is something like "I can't wait till I finish my training because I'm going to work at Palma".
There is a long way to go before the end of your time at the college, and don't forget you will not get any ratings until you validate them in the UK. You cannot just leave the UK at the end of the course.
Be thankfull that you have been accepted, I'm sure someone who has just been rejected would have given more than you just for the chance to work in the UK.
I can see you are excited about future avenues but think about passing your exams first without the arrogance of assuming you will pass. Then validate your ratings whrever you may be, and then after, say, 5 years experience explore further avenues. Not forgetting avenues will change according to whether you are area or approach, which will not be your descision.
When I worked as an OJTI in ATC the worst thing for a cadet to be was arrogant and assumption. It was the main downfall of many.
ILS 119.5
Don't run before you can walk!
NATS will love you when you start at the college and you're remark is something like "I can't wait till I finish my training because I'm going to work at Palma".
There is a long way to go before the end of your time at the college, and don't forget you will not get any ratings until you validate them in the UK. You cannot just leave the UK at the end of the course.
Be thankfull that you have been accepted, I'm sure someone who has just been rejected would have given more than you just for the chance to work in the UK.
I can see you are excited about future avenues but think about passing your exams first without the arrogance of assuming you will pass. Then validate your ratings whrever you may be, and then after, say, 5 years experience explore further avenues. Not forgetting avenues will change according to whether you are area or approach, which will not be your descision.
When I worked as an OJTI in ATC the worst thing for a cadet to be was arrogant and assumption. It was the main downfall of many.
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As 250 says, when will NATS wake up and realise the financial implications of not having people tied in for x years with financial penalty for leaving the company before that time?
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Talk about putting your head on the chopping block.!!!!!!!!!!
I remember when I went through the college one of my course colleagues made some passing reference on here to the instructors being "backstabbing bastards". He was of course hunted down and shot. I suspect patrick that if that really is your name that you will suffer the same fate.
Good luck old son....................
and welcome to NATS
I dont think that is what Mr Barron means by exciting destinations.......
I remember when I went through the college one of my course colleagues made some passing reference on here to the instructors being "backstabbing bastards". He was of course hunted down and shot. I suspect patrick that if that really is your name that you will suffer the same fate.
Good luck old son....................
and welcome to NATS
I dont think that is what Mr Barron means by exciting destinations.......
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Personally I think it's pathetic that someone might be 'hunted down and shot' because they don't see themselves with NATS for their entire careers. In fact, maybe if some of you had any ambition at all you might consider a career abroad as well?!? It seems that we can all piss and moan about how terrible NATS is what with their 'destinations' rubbish/poor pay/blah blah blah, and yet if anyone has the sheer audacity to hint that in a few years time they would like to work abroad, people rise up in uproar!! I'd like to think that the instructors at the college aren't that petty anymore to be honest.......The poor lad was only asking what the chances might be in a few years time of working abroad........jeeeeeez! 
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and yet if anyone has the sheer audacity to hint that in a few years time they would like to work abroad, people rise up in uproar
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Sorry Jerricho. You speak alot of sense 99.9% of the time but I can't see what your point is in this particular instance, whether he's started at the college or not. If you look at any graduate or school leaver going into a new job, they won't be thinking 'this will be nice for the rest of my days'. They use it as a stepping stone to fulfill whatever career ambitions they might have. Nobody in any business is naive enough to think that once they've got someone, they've got them for life. When is ATC and in particular NATS going to snap into the 21st century and realise this? Maybe NATS as a company should be asking itself WHY people want to move to Spain or New Zealand (or Canada ) or wherever, rather than stay here in blighty. Patrick, if that's your real name, Good Luck to you. I applaud your honesty and I just hope the college instructors act in a professional manner whilst you're there.
) or wherever, rather than stay here in blighty. Patrick, if that's your real name, Good Luck to you. I applaud your honesty and I just hope the college instructors act in a professional manner whilst you're there.
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Well Vampy, put it this way.
Day one sim at the college. SATC sits down next to you, ready to be introduced to the world of ATC. You know for a fact SATC wants to finish the course, validate then look elsewhere for a job. Would you feel a little used?
Day one on initial posting. The now TATC sits down next to you ready to gain all your fruitful knowledge and experience. Once again, it is known that as soon as they get a licence, they're out of there. Would you feel a little used? Sure, you're professional enough to instruct to the full extent of your OJTI ticket, but you're going to feel a little used.
Day one of newly validated ATCO. Right or wrong, newly rated ATCO realises to make him/herself more attractive to external sources they sign up for an OJTI course. Management begin to base further training allocation decisions on the premise they're going ot have another training body.
Sorry Vampy, but I can bet this would be going through a lot of peoples heads. And (sorry Patrick, just speculating here) just think, day One again at the team building exercise. People find out you're thinking this way, and are prepared to put your name to it on this forum (which is very widely read). Certainly doesn't lead to a productive co-hesive team environment.
Day one sim at the college. SATC sits down next to you, ready to be introduced to the world of ATC. You know for a fact SATC wants to finish the course, validate then look elsewhere for a job. Would you feel a little used?
Day one on initial posting. The now TATC sits down next to you ready to gain all your fruitful knowledge and experience. Once again, it is known that as soon as they get a licence, they're out of there. Would you feel a little used? Sure, you're professional enough to instruct to the full extent of your OJTI ticket, but you're going to feel a little used.
Day one of newly validated ATCO. Right or wrong, newly rated ATCO realises to make him/herself more attractive to external sources they sign up for an OJTI course. Management begin to base further training allocation decisions on the premise they're going ot have another training body.
Sorry Vampy, but I can bet this would be going through a lot of peoples heads. And (sorry Patrick, just speculating here) just think, day One again at the team building exercise. People find out you're thinking this way, and are prepared to put your name to it on this forum (which is very widely read). Certainly doesn't lead to a productive co-hesive team environment.
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As with anything on the Internet, peoples perceptions play a large part.
Vampy has a perception that leyshon will put in a decent shift at NATS for a few years before heading off to pastures new. I don't think anyone would have a problem with that case. The time, money, and resource spent on the young chaps career would be paid back before he left.
Others like me get the perecption that the gent would be out the door as soon as he could. So we all spend a year or more of our time and energy filling up a shortfall only for the ATCO to go again as soon as we have given him the means to do so. Given the choice, I think most of us would rather devote our resources to people who are going to contribute to easing the shortages we already have, people who want to be with NATS for a good few years developing themselves before seeking out their ambition elsewhere.
I'd propose a 5 year sliding training bond to prevent this kind of thing happening. It's common place in many airlines.
Vampy has a perception that leyshon will put in a decent shift at NATS for a few years before heading off to pastures new. I don't think anyone would have a problem with that case. The time, money, and resource spent on the young chaps career would be paid back before he left.
Others like me get the perecption that the gent would be out the door as soon as he could. So we all spend a year or more of our time and energy filling up a shortfall only for the ATCO to go again as soon as we have given him the means to do so. Given the choice, I think most of us would rather devote our resources to people who are going to contribute to easing the shortages we already have, people who want to be with NATS for a good few years developing themselves before seeking out their ambition elsewhere.
I'd propose a 5 year sliding training bond to prevent this kind of thing happening. It's common place in many airlines.
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Good old Patrick, I bet he's kicking himself now!! We've all dropped a massive clanger in our lives and it looks like this is Patrick's !!
What a lot of you haven't picked up on is the fact that Pat is no good to ANY overseas ATC provider without Certificates of Competence (ie validations) and TIME SERVED (or experience if you prefer!).
So he's going to have to leave the college, validate somewhere and get 4-5 yrs experience under his belt before he could in all seriousness sell himself to NAVCANADA, SERCO (Middle East) etc etc. So he's sort of bonded by default.
Perhaps this hadn't occured to him. Still, there's always changing your name by deed poll
How about Leighton Patrickson??
What a lot of you haven't picked up on is the fact that Pat is no good to ANY overseas ATC provider without Certificates of Competence (ie validations) and TIME SERVED (or experience if you prefer!).
So he's going to have to leave the college, validate somewhere and get 4-5 yrs experience under his belt before he could in all seriousness sell himself to NAVCANADA, SERCO (Middle East) etc etc. So he's sort of bonded by default.
Perhaps this hadn't occured to him. Still, there's always changing your name by deed poll
How about Leighton Patrickson??
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I'd propose a 5 year sliding training bond to prevent this kind of thing happening
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Jerricho,
Eurocontrol has had it in place for years.
You know for a fact SATC wants to finish the course, validate then look elsewhere for a job. Would you feel a little used?
Sounds like someone else I know
I agree with Vampy,If that is the professionalism of some instructors then everyone in there should be worried not just Mr Leyshon.
Come on guys, give him a break, not the brightest of things to do but at least he has career ambition..unlike many others I know that sit on their fat lazy asses and bitch about money all day, with no ambition in life other than to sit out waiting for their pension.
Eurocontrol has had it in place for years.
You know for a fact SATC wants to finish the course, validate then look elsewhere for a job. Would you feel a little used?
Sounds like someone else I know
I agree with Vampy,If that is the professionalism of some instructors then everyone in there should be worried not just Mr Leyshon.
Come on guys, give him a break, not the brightest of things to do but at least he has career ambition..unlike many others I know that sit on their fat lazy asses and bitch about money all day, with no ambition in life other than to sit out waiting for their pension.
Last edited by The Euronator; 14th Nov 2004 at 09:26.
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Jerricho, that's correct about AirServices Australia having a training bond. I think it may be $14 000/year over 5 years kicking in at the first rating.
Fair enough I think - costs quite a bit to train someone. Though (as squibbler points out) would you get a job overseas with less than 5 years experience anyway?
I would hope/expect that if someone wanted to leave the industry altogether that the bond would be voided. You don't really want someone controlling who doesn't want to be there and is looking for ways to leave.
Fair enough I think - costs quite a bit to train someone. Though (as squibbler points out) would you get a job overseas with less than 5 years experience anyway?
I would hope/expect that if someone wanted to leave the industry altogether that the bond would be voided. You don't really want someone controlling who doesn't want to be there and is looking for ways to leave.