WMU - Probably The Best Training Choice Available.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Taunton
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
WMU - Probably The Best Training Choice Available.
Hi all. Does anyone have any views and/or experiance of Western Michigan University as an integrated course provider? I've done a search on this site, and surprisingly there isn't that much useful feedback and certainly nothing useful recently. I understand that in 2002 they pulled the plug on the JAR syllabus in order to 're-structure'. I also understand that, prior to 9/11 they trained BA and Aer Lingus cadets amongst other sponsored programmes. Ok, initially sounds good but what's word on the street?
Can somebody tell me what the catch is? They are one of the 4 CAA approved integrated courses, seem to have a good pedigree and the course cost is $73,200. They recommend you provision an extra $13000 for food and accomodation.
Due to the current weakness of the USD, this equates to just over £40,000 for the course with an extra £7k for food and accom!! Is this not just about the best bargain the world of aviation has right now? I'm sure 40k isn't a drop in the ocean for anyone, but compared to any European option it's got be ahead of the game....hasn't it?
When things seem to good to be true they usually are, so I'm hoping that one of you guys can spot the catch....but I can't see it! You get an integrated course, for the equivalent price of modular at an approved establishment? With the saved cash (over a European integrated choice) you could go on to get an intructor's rating or do some significant hour building.
I don't want to get into the usual modular/integrated debate, BUT if you were to believe that airlines held ANY favour for integrated courses, then this should keep the guys arguing modular and the guys arguing integrated happy shouldn't it? You cover all bases - minimize cost and maximise employment potential.
So come on someone - tell me how naive I'm being, and that I need to spend another £30k on an integrated course or stick to a modular one! Is WMU worth it or not?
Can somebody tell me what the catch is? They are one of the 4 CAA approved integrated courses, seem to have a good pedigree and the course cost is $73,200. They recommend you provision an extra $13000 for food and accomodation.
Due to the current weakness of the USD, this equates to just over £40,000 for the course with an extra £7k for food and accom!! Is this not just about the best bargain the world of aviation has right now? I'm sure 40k isn't a drop in the ocean for anyone, but compared to any European option it's got be ahead of the game....hasn't it?
When things seem to good to be true they usually are, so I'm hoping that one of you guys can spot the catch....but I can't see it! You get an integrated course, for the equivalent price of modular at an approved establishment? With the saved cash (over a European integrated choice) you could go on to get an intructor's rating or do some significant hour building.
I don't want to get into the usual modular/integrated debate, BUT if you were to believe that airlines held ANY favour for integrated courses, then this should keep the guys arguing modular and the guys arguing integrated happy shouldn't it? You cover all bases - minimize cost and maximise employment potential.
So come on someone - tell me how naive I'm being, and that I need to spend another £30k on an integrated course or stick to a modular one! Is WMU worth it or not?
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: oxford
Posts: 247
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Suggest you read the following thread, if you haven't already:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...n&pagenumber=1
It was all very veiled, because it is evident that some of the contributors who knew the full story were fearful of losing their jobs.
OK, it's over a year old, but it takes a long time to repair that sort of damage.
I know nothing myself - just what I read - but I suggest it needs very careful enquiry before you commit to anything.
If it was that fantastic a deal, everyone would be doing it.
It's a general rule that if something sounds too good to be true - it probably is!
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...n&pagenumber=1
It was all very veiled, because it is evident that some of the contributors who knew the full story were fearful of losing their jobs.
OK, it's over a year old, but it takes a long time to repair that sort of damage.
I know nothing myself - just what I read - but I suggest it needs very careful enquiry before you commit to anything.
If it was that fantastic a deal, everyone would be doing it.
It's a general rule that if something sounds too good to be true - it probably is!
Join Date: Dec 1997
Location: Suffolk UK
Posts: 4,927
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
We should point out here that Oxford Blue is very closely associated with a certain large, very well-known flight school in Britain, and his opinions may not be totally unbiassed!
That said, I can make no comment on WMU to further your decision making process, I'm afraid. As OB suggests, great deals have a habit of not meeting your expectations, so research your choice of school very carefully. I've no doubt that others may post or PM you their experiences of WMU.
Scroggs
That said, I can make no comment on WMU to further your decision making process, I'm afraid. As OB suggests, great deals have a habit of not meeting your expectations, so research your choice of school very carefully. I've no doubt that others may post or PM you their experiences of WMU.
Scroggs
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: London
Posts: 26
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thundercat... are you me?
I logged in to ask a very similar question!
From what i can gather WMU is a very good school. In fact i spoke to the head of recruitment at a large British Airline last week and he recommended it along with Oxford and Jerez. I think the thread highlighted by Oxford Blue is just regarding the difficulties the college had following 9/11 and loss of business from airline sponsored cadets etc. The fact that it has now reopened must be a positive sign.
I'd love to hear some 1st hand reports of training there though. I know there are probs with weather in the winter though whether it is any worse than the conditions in England i don't know.
Anyone there at the mo' care to divulge their experiences?
I logged in to ask a very similar question!
From what i can gather WMU is a very good school. In fact i spoke to the head of recruitment at a large British Airline last week and he recommended it along with Oxford and Jerez. I think the thread highlighted by Oxford Blue is just regarding the difficulties the college had following 9/11 and loss of business from airline sponsored cadets etc. The fact that it has now reopened must be a positive sign.
I'd love to hear some 1st hand reports of training there though. I know there are probs with weather in the winter though whether it is any worse than the conditions in England i don't know.
Anyone there at the mo' care to divulge their experiences?
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Dont ask!.. i just fly the plane
Posts: 109
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
WMU
HI ALL,just a few observations i came up with;WMU seem to offer a good deal as pointed out by all ,but one has to keep in mind that FOOD AND ACCOMODATION are not included and there are the RETURN FLIGHTS TO THE USA that one has to consider,all these would amount to a considerable sum.If u take JEREZ although it seems like a fortune at 92000 EUROS it will make more sense when u consider that food and accomodation is included, plus flights would be much cheaper to your destination if u live in Europe.Anyway just my humble opinions ,good luck to all.
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Naples, Florida
Posts: 85
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
geraldn
You cannot lose with the weak dollar as it is!
$1.8582 to the pound is fab and will prob discount the flight -
I do not know the prices at WMU but taking an average of $5000.00 for a PPL you are saving almost $400.00 dollars.....not to mention the discount if you go all the way through based on $30,000.00 would be more than $6,700.00.
As for the food, you need to eat wherever you are
Whilst costs vary greatly throught the US for food, I would say that MI is not the most expensive area.
Good luck....
Nikki
$1.8582 to the pound is fab and will prob discount the flight -
I do not know the prices at WMU but taking an average of $5000.00 for a PPL you are saving almost $400.00 dollars.....not to mention the discount if you go all the way through based on $30,000.00 would be more than $6,700.00.
As for the food, you need to eat wherever you are
Whilst costs vary greatly throught the US for food, I would say that MI is not the most expensive area.Good luck....
Nikki
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Taunton
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Some interesting feedback, but as yet no-one with any direct experiance of WMU as a training institution.
Scroggs - thank you for pointing out Oxford Blue's possibly slightly less than objective view point.
Oxford Blue - yes I had read that thread - however, it is now almost 2 YEARS OLD. While I agree that losing 5 instructors is a blow, I don't believe it isn't recoverable in that period.
Jonny - err, no somehow I don't think I'm you...Dr. Jekyll! I have heard equally positive things about WMU, but can it compete with the likes of Jerez, Cabair and OATS? If it turns out to be as good as it looks, I may see you there!
Geraldn - take another look at my first post. At the current exchange, the course comes in at UNDER £40k. Even if you eat a lot of pies and drink a lot of ginger beer - food & accom is unlikely to cost more than 8k. Admittedly, the flights to and from the US would be more than hopping back and forth to Jerez. However, would it surprise you that the average price of return ticket to Detroit is just £300. Provision 6 flights for the course = £1800. Even then your only just touching on £50k. That's still around 14-15k cheaper than Flight Training Europe or OATS. That's alot of money in my book.
Ninety-Nines - we seem to be on the same page here! This has got to be a good thing surely. There aren't many positives for us Wannabees right now, but this is as close to a gift-horse as they come isn't it?!!
So who's got some first hand experience to report? I know Michigan has some cold winters and that can hold things up a bit - but is that enough to discount it? Keep the thoughts coming
Thundercat.
Scroggs - thank you for pointing out Oxford Blue's possibly slightly less than objective view point.
Oxford Blue - yes I had read that thread - however, it is now almost 2 YEARS OLD. While I agree that losing 5 instructors is a blow, I don't believe it isn't recoverable in that period.
Jonny - err, no somehow I don't think I'm you...Dr. Jekyll! I have heard equally positive things about WMU, but can it compete with the likes of Jerez, Cabair and OATS? If it turns out to be as good as it looks, I may see you there!
Geraldn - take another look at my first post. At the current exchange, the course comes in at UNDER £40k. Even if you eat a lot of pies and drink a lot of ginger beer - food & accom is unlikely to cost more than 8k. Admittedly, the flights to and from the US would be more than hopping back and forth to Jerez. However, would it surprise you that the average price of return ticket to Detroit is just £300. Provision 6 flights for the course = £1800. Even then your only just touching on £50k. That's still around 14-15k cheaper than Flight Training Europe or OATS. That's alot of money in my book.
Ninety-Nines - we seem to be on the same page here! This has got to be a good thing surely. There aren't many positives for us Wannabees right now, but this is as close to a gift-horse as they come isn't it?!!
So who's got some first hand experience to report? I know Michigan has some cold winters and that can hold things up a bit - but is that enough to discount it? Keep the thoughts coming
Thundercat.
Why do it if it's not fun?
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Bournemouth
Posts: 4,779
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Even then your only just touching on £50k. That's still around 14-15k cheaper than Flight Training Europe or OATS
FFF
-----------
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: London
Posts: 26
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I hope you're not trying to start an argument there! This thread is actually about the 4 approved integrated courses. Can you really go the modular route for 20-25K?
by the way Thundercat.. check your PMs.
by the way Thundercat.. check your PMs.
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: uk
Posts: 267
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
well 50K - 15K = 35K and even so, that would be a tough budget for a modular course. It has been suggested by WWW that approx. £40000 is a more realistic figure for modular. Anyway, my contribution to all this is to say ahng on for a while people, economists reckon the dollar could easily go 2 : 1 with the pound. THEN, it will be a bargin!! In fact, if it does go to that rate and you aren't ready to train, there are several ways to open up a dollar account in the UK - fill your account with dollars at 2 : 1 when (eventualy) the rate gets back to a more sustainable level, buy your pounds back and make money for nothing!!
at least in theory!!
at least in theory!!
Why do it if it's not fun?
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Bournemouth
Posts: 4,779
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I hope you're not trying to start an argument there! This thread is actually about the 4 approved integrated courses
Aside from your problem with basic mental arithmetic, which silverknapper has already pointed out
you are quite correct, and I apologise - I probably shouldn't have raised that subject here because it's not related to the question being asked, it's just that it seemed almost relevant given Thundercat's comment.FFF
--------------
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: London
Posts: 26
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I deducted 14 or 15k from 50 = 35 to 36K and then subtracted another 10 or 15k for accomodation and food which equals 21 to 26K. I rounded this down to 20 - 25.
That's all correct isn't it?
Please tell me where I've gone wrong 'cos i can't see anywhere
And if you're baseing the costs exempt from food and accomodation:
WMU integrated course = $73200= £39000 (accordng to current exchange rate)
Thats the same sort of price that it has become apparent you are talking about.
Thats before you've considered the cheap cost of living in Michigan ($13000 = £7000).
That's all correct isn't it?
Please tell me where I've gone wrong 'cos i can't see anywhere
And if you're baseing the costs exempt from food and accomodation:
WMU integrated course = $73200= £39000 (accordng to current exchange rate)
Thats the same sort of price that it has become apparent you are talking about.
Thats before you've considered the cheap cost of living in Michigan ($13000 = £7000).
Jet Blast Rat
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Sarfend-on-Sea
Age: 51
Posts: 2,081
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Your own factors will make this choice for you, Thundercat - it might well be that in your case this is "... the best training choice available" but for most people it won't be. Choice of school is very personal, hence the great variety available and my recommendation always to visit several, of different types.
I also work for a UK school, by the way. The reason I put this forward is that when I was looking for a course 4 years ago I found it very difficult getting through the maze of "integrated" and "modular" courses. At the time due to the more normal rate of the dollar WMU was not cheap at all - about £52,000 compared to the £35,000 I spent at SFT (would have been £38,000 from scratch). People who have been persuaded one way repeating the schools' propoganda for their choice without any backing will not help others choose.
Why do you say this "...maximises employment potential..."? Remember that when they were actually recruiting first-job pilots even BA accepted modular courses. Unless you are looking at BA or Emirates in the current climate then there is no significant effect on employment prospects between integrated and modular.
I also work for a UK school, by the way. The reason I put this forward is that when I was looking for a course 4 years ago I found it very difficult getting through the maze of "integrated" and "modular" courses. At the time due to the more normal rate of the dollar WMU was not cheap at all - about £52,000 compared to the £35,000 I spent at SFT (would have been £38,000 from scratch). People who have been persuaded one way repeating the schools' propoganda for their choice without any backing will not help others choose.
Why do you say this "...maximises employment potential..."? Remember that when they were actually recruiting first-job pilots even BA accepted modular courses. Unless you are looking at BA or Emirates in the current climate then there is no significant effect on employment prospects between integrated and modular.
Last edited by Send Clowns; 11th Feb 2004 at 21:03.
Jet Blast Rat
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Sarfend-on-Sea
Age: 51
Posts: 2,081
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fair enough, Jonny 
but as I said, I had these problems to contend with way back in the beginning of JAA. The propoganda from a school, that said it was the best due to some of the factors talked about here, did not help. Fortunately I did not fall for it - with what I know now I realise that that school had especially great problems with groundschool, and other issues they did not admit to me.
but as I said, I had these problems to contend with way back in the beginning of JAA. The propoganda from a school, that said it was the best due to some of the factors talked about here, did not help. Fortunately I did not fall for it - with what I know now I realise that that school had especially great problems with groundschool, and other issues they did not admit to me.
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: London
Posts: 26
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I quite agree Send Clowns. Its good that you're warning of the evils of marketing depts and myths associated with these places. If i hadn't read the thoughts and experiences of you and others on here i might be well on my way to Oxford with a huge HSBC loan and probable eventual disappointment and financial strife.
I'm just laughing at the predictablity of so many threads like this... no criticism at all.
I'm just laughing at the predictablity of so many threads like this... no criticism at all.
Join Date: Dec 1997
Location: Suffolk UK
Posts: 4,927
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Clowns is right; there is nothing intrinsically superior about an integrated course, whoever runs it. Don't be fooled into buying one because you've been told the airlines prefer them, frankly, that's bollox! All the airlines care about is your licence and your experience. There are one or two recruiters who still think we're in the era of 509 courses and self-improvers, but they're rapidly dying out - fortunately.
The only reason to take an integrated course is because it suits your circumstances better than modular does, period.
Scroggs
The only reason to take an integrated course is because it suits your circumstances better than modular does, period.
Scroggs
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Taunton
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Not to start a bun fight but Jonny's figures are in the correct ball-park. If you take the course cost at today's EC's ($1.86=£1) then the course cost is approx £38k. Let's compare apples with apples (ie without accom costs etc). Flying for fun made the statement that a modular route could save £14-15k off this price, which makes it in the £25k region. Nice if you can but show me where and the course breakdown Flyingforfun.
And already I find myself being dragged into the usual modular/integrated rib poking! 'Predicatable' as Jonny rightly described it. So come on guys, don't use this thread as the usual verbal fencing match. I've made a statement to debate, with facts if possible. Conjecture is good, but in context.
And Send Clowns, I'm not trying to sway people any particular way, I'm trying to make a judgement on institution with the help of the experiences of those in this forum. After all, isn't that what it's all about? I agree - a training institution is a personal choice, but at some point ALL of us are swayed by particular factors, usually cost. OATS may well be my best suited personal choice which may fit everything I want a training organisation to have, but the critical point is NOT EVERYONE CAN AFFORD IT!
Furthermore - I'm not saying an integrated course necessarily maximises employment potential - there doesn't seem any convincing proof either way. I was merely saying, if there is any truth to that rumour, then it's a extra benefit of choosing WMU without being penalised on cost for taking that choice!
Any one got a view on that?
And already I find myself being dragged into the usual modular/integrated rib poking! 'Predicatable' as Jonny rightly described it. So come on guys, don't use this thread as the usual verbal fencing match. I've made a statement to debate, with facts if possible. Conjecture is good, but in context.
And Send Clowns, I'm not trying to sway people any particular way, I'm trying to make a judgement on institution with the help of the experiences of those in this forum. After all, isn't that what it's all about? I agree - a training institution is a personal choice, but at some point ALL of us are swayed by particular factors, usually cost. OATS may well be my best suited personal choice which may fit everything I want a training organisation to have, but the critical point is NOT EVERYONE CAN AFFORD IT!
Furthermore - I'm not saying an integrated course necessarily maximises employment potential - there doesn't seem any convincing proof either way. I was merely saying, if there is any truth to that rumour, then it's a extra benefit of choosing WMU without being penalised on cost for taking that choice!
Any one got a view on that?
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: uk
Posts: 139
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
thundercat
If you read the web-site on WMU it says you can only make two return trips home throughout the course, so forget about your six trips home. The nearest airport to fly into is Kalamazoo which has direct services from O'hare on a CRJ.
Next courses are April and Sept, so you had better get your skates on if you are thinking of applying.
Anyway trying to get a sched flight from Jerez to home 6 times a year would be very expensive. Probably same price as getting to WMU. Would be best getting a cheap charter from Malaga.
If you read the web-site on WMU it says you can only make two return trips home throughout the course, so forget about your six trips home. The nearest airport to fly into is Kalamazoo which has direct services from O'hare on a CRJ.
Next courses are April and Sept, so you had better get your skates on if you are thinking of applying.
Anyway trying to get a sched flight from Jerez to home 6 times a year would be very expensive. Probably same price as getting to WMU. Would be best getting a cheap charter from Malaga.