Menen

The problem of pilots faking flying hours has been with the aviation community for decades. If done with a modicum of care the perpetrator relies on the complacency of the industry to get him an interview before others more honest in the queue.

Few chief pilots vet their employees log books for honesty and accuracy and in any case the Privacy Act could be invoked if any probe on flying hours logged got too close to home. Certainly ATO's and FOI's seldom question the integrity of flying hours logged in the log books of those under test. It becomes almost impossible to police.

Instrument flight hours mean nothing in the real world because these can be logged while "monitoring" the auto-pilot. The RFDS advertisements for pilots now require a minimum of 800 hours of Instrument Flight Rules time. That is easy to fake as no one is going to trawl back on old flight plans to see if the claimed hours were IFR. The RFDS requirements are an open invitation to falsify IFR hours. CASA look the other way as they have no regulatory interest in what IFR hours a pilot claims. In PNG a pilot seeking a job was told that he must have a minimum of 500 hours in his log book before being employed. The would be employer added with a big hint that as long as the log book showed 500 hours - he would be satisfied and so would be the insurer. Get the message?

The job of the crew member of one of our major domestic jet operators is to write up the trip log after each sector flown. All sectors that day were flown on gin clear day conditions no cloud. His captain signed off the trip record and said "Put me down for 1.2 hours of instrument flying to keep up my currency." So we have the unlovely situation of even four bar jet captains falsifying instrument time to satisfy the company records. CASA would never check.

What an indictment on the integrity of pilots as a whole - both in GA and RPT. So it seems the morale of the story is that you can go fill your boots with fake hours and no one gives a damn.

Ash767

Menen

I am sure there are pilots out there that enter fake hours into their log books. If they choose to well that is there prerogative.

The thing about flying though is that you can sit at the bar the night before and show off your log book and tell them how good you are. Then you have to go out the next day and prove yourself (with 0 blood alcohol level)

So in a way our profession is an honest one as a good check and training person or chief pilot would have a fairly good idea of what to expect based on your hours I would think.

Ash767

Arm out the window

Obviously it's something that concerns you.
Have you put in a CAIR about the ones you know about? This would seem to be an obvious use of that avenue of reporting; having said that, I don't know how effective they are.

Poto

Had a dude with our mob who had one their of past employers aircraft in a local maintenance organisation for a hundred, upon analysing this pilots logbook with the hours on the aircraft it appears the figures were approx. 4:1 with an average of 3-4 hours between hours, nice one

Needless to say the end had already began anyway but this was a deal sealer, see ya mate

18-Wheeler

I've only ever flown with one guy who padded his hours, and he did it with great vigour.
He was an F/O with me when I used to fly a Citation, and I'm pretty sure he started to log the flight time from when we left the house to go to the airport.
He ended up in Ansett as an A-320 F/O, but after the airline's demise he isn't in aviation any more.
His lack of real hours showed in his handling skills of the Citation (very easy plane to fly) when he first got in it, but he picked up to a reasonable standard after some time in it.

Ang737

I am damn certain that if one of these dodgy hour fakers had an accident then the logbook would be scrutinised by insurance mobs. Has anyone heard of this occurring and have insurance failed to payout based on false logbook entries

Ang

ISHIHARA

It all shows in the flying..................

Seen one particular boy look stupid "with all his hours"!

swh

Menen,

Your statement that the RFDS requires 800 IF is incorrect have a look at the latest advertsement, have a look at Oz Jobs 03.10.03

SWH

Kermit 180

Reminds me of the story about a young pilot doing an IFR renewal. Looking through the candidate's logbook, the testing officer asked about one particular aircraft.
"Oh yes, I've flown that many times" the candidate said. "Flies like a dream".
The testing officer turns the page, sees more entries for the same aircraft. "Done a fair bit of IF time in it I see. Last flight in it IFR four days ago. Any problems with it?".
"No, no problems" replied the cadidate, "a nice day's flying".
The testing officer slamed the logbook shut and dropped it on the desk. "So maybe you can explain how you came to be flying an aircraft I own that has been undergoing a rebuild for the past two months!"

Hate to think some dishonest so and so would leap-frog me to a job through falsifying hours. Lie at your own peril....


Kerms

Beer Can Dreaming

Was there not a pilot that left Impulse to join Ansett on the A320 and was found to have faked certain educational qualifications?

Said pilot was apparently doing well on his Sim training and was purportedly asked to leave.

Rumour is he returned from whence he came.

If true this chap was very lucky no charges were laid but to avoid bad press the airline let it slip by .......................supposedly.

wessex19

I remember a MU 2 pilot a number of years ago from Newcastle Aviation who gave a dodgy reference from an Ansett Training Captain who he had met briefly at a bbq who he knew was going on long service. This bloke was accepted into Ansett on the A320, however it all ended in tears when on return from long service, a certain ground instructor told Captain xxxxxx that his mate xxxxx was doing well. The rest is history.

TIMMEEEE

Wessex - maybe there was something you werent told because once someone is employed it's very hard just to sack someone without due cause - industrially speaking.

Besides, wouldnt the company (Ansett in this case) ask the Training Captain about this fellow, even if he was on leave?

Doesnt sound very water tight to me and I just may smell a little bit of pork in this tale.

jib

I came across VH-BIC in central QLD a while ago, I asked the owner for a quick circuit so I could put the famous rego in my log book. The owner was unable to help due to a prior commitment, he told me however that nobody had ever asked before, much to my surprise.
jib

greybeard

What does an hour mean in the Log Book

A check Capt riding in the Jump seat as part of his checking duties logs the hours

Someone with a Command rating acting as an F/O by employment and assigned duties has been known to log the hours as command

An F/O from an Asian airline is rumoured to have logged all his hours as an F/O as Command, in a separate log book, as the endorsement was on his Aust licence as a Command rating and is rumoured to have used these hours to achieve a Command in another asian airline. (discussed many moons ago on this forum)

Heavy crews on long haul log the hours even when ASLEEP!!!!

So you have to have an open mind when you assess the Log as to what is what, a spot check with one of the A/C shown on a day vs the log book could catch the really dishonest but the game is open to all sorts of VH-BIC.

Av8r

Just to refresh your memory:


Instrument Flight Time

All flight time during which the aircraft was controlled solely by reference to instruments may be recorded in the instrument 'Flight' column:
a) Time above overcast or at night in Visual Meteorological Conditions (VMC) is not counted as instrument flight;
b) In actual or simulated instrument conditions, only the pilot manipulating the controls or providing input to the auto-pilot may log all flight time as instrument flight;
c) A flight conducted on an Instrument Flight Rules (IFR) flight plan is not to be counted as instrument flight unless flying in IMC;
d) Instrument approaches are to be credited to the pilot (pilots, in the case of an airborne radar approach) manipulating the controls or providing input to the auto-pilot during the approach.



There wouldn’t be too many pilots in Australia with 800hrs IFR time.

You can ONLY log time IAW the above parra B.

Your average jet jock out of a ****ty day in Melb and into a ****ty day in Sydney, and then ONLY the manipulating pilot, can only log….10 – 15 minutes…maybe.

Now if he / she did the entire flight on foggles or similar, well I guess he / she could log that. But I would doubt many flights are conducted in that manner.

In fact, having a think about it, probably the highest time IFR time jock would be a certain helicopter pilot working on Hamilton Island.

He flies on contract mostly nights, over water on 100nm legs on an IFR plan obviously, and as it’s a helicopter, at low-ish levels ( less than 10,000ft) a good percentage of that in IMC, and he’s been doing that for more than 20 years, and when I flew with him, all hand flown. A living legend.


Mack

marreeman

Good topic, it may look odd for someone to have a lot of IF time but if they were to take along someone who is a qualified pilot to keep a look out then the PIC could put the foggles on for most of the flight & legally log it. As people have said this time would be very hard to check up on even if weather forecast were still available years after a flight was done. To prove that you didnt have the foggles on would be impossible & im not saying it is ok to lie by using this excuse but it could be legitimate could it not.

What about if you are conducting a private flight the new employer cant ring & check with anybody if that flight was planned under the IFR.

AV8R IFR time is only operating under instrument flight rules doesnt mean IMC only on the plan.

swh

marreeman

Just checking to see if we are on the same page here, 40.1.0 does not require you to be on an IFR plan to log Instrument Time.

Everyone needs instrument time for a GFPT, PPL, and CPL, very few people would have done this on a IFR plan.

The test to apply is that all flight time during which the aircraft was controlled solely by reference to instruments under either actual or simulated instrument flight conditions may be recorded as instrument flight time.

Ash767

I may have missed something but I have never heard the term VH-BIC. Just would love to know what the BIC "Rego" stands for.

Ash767

Jet_A_Knight

Ash, you must be young or have lived a very sheltered life so far!

Its a brand of pen (and disposable shavers if i am not mistaken)

Ash767

Like I said. "I must have missed something"
Yeah you could say I am still reasonably young!

Nothing wrong with admitting you do not know something

Ash