EC135 down in Penna.....So this makes 3
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From: West
EC135 down in Penna.....So this makes 3
Joined: Apr 2006
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From: USA (PA)
I just took a look at the wreck in our hangar...
One engine failed on takeoff - clipped a trailer upon landing, rolled over to the left and beat itself to death. (probably would have been just a hard landing if the trailer wouldn't have been there).
Airframe had less than 200 hours on it.
Crew got out more or less ok - I hear a possible dislocated shoulder and a few bruises is all there is - good news!
The base had some issues with the "not in my backyard" people (I think they even took it to court and lost), so it looks like they got their case now
One engine failed on takeoff - clipped a trailer upon landing, rolled over to the left and beat itself to death. (probably would have been just a hard landing if the trailer wouldn't have been there).
Airframe had less than 200 hours on it.
Crew got out more or less ok - I hear a possible dislocated shoulder and a few bruises is all there is - good news!
The base had some issues with the "not in my backyard" people (I think they even took it to court and lost), so it looks like they got their case now
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From: USA (PA)
The engines (P&W I believe) are still on the airframe and will be send to the factory as soon as they get 'em out, would be a bit quick to get the final cause only 2 days after the accident don't you think?
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From: UK
If this accident was the result of an engine failure, would I be right to presume that the aircraft wasn't operating to Group A requirements?
If the area that it launched from was clear, shouldn't it have been able to either return there or fly away after TDP? Unless it took off from beside the trailer in the first place...
Glad to hear that the crew are ok.
If the area that it launched from was clear, shouldn't it have been able to either return there or fly away after TDP? Unless it took off from beside the trailer in the first place...
Glad to hear that the crew are ok.
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From: Downeast
BO's, BK's, 135's, and 145's are not known for their single engine prowess.
One could operate Cat A (Cat 1) but you would be limited to a verbal message for a payload.
Payload pays the bills....ergo....no Cat A.
The better question is how many of these kinds of accidents are human initiated?
EMS guys get pushed into hurrying....and sometimes one or more throttle is left at idle as they dash off into the black murk at Zero Dark Thirty. Or in some fuel switches get left off....and a quick takeoff gets you off the pad before the engine starves to death.
I ain't pointing fingers at this one....just suggesting the reality of EMS flying.
One could operate Cat A (Cat 1) but you would be limited to a verbal message for a payload.
Payload pays the bills....ergo....no Cat A.
The better question is how many of these kinds of accidents are human initiated?
EMS guys get pushed into hurrying....and sometimes one or more throttle is left at idle as they dash off into the black murk at Zero Dark Thirty. Or in some fuel switches get left off....and a quick takeoff gets you off the pad before the engine starves to death.
I ain't pointing fingers at this one....just suggesting the reality of EMS flying.
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From: USA (PA)
SASless:
If you don't mind me asking... how can payload be an issue on this side of the pond but not in europe?
I'm specifically talking about the ADAC in Germany, operating EC135 P1's CAT A from -for example- one of their bases on a parking garage's roof in the middle of town. They too (like the aircraft in question) operate with pilot, paramedic on the left seat and a nurse (or doctor) in the back.
Are they trying to maximise the fuel load over here, or using heavier nurse's (ups! did I just say that?
)?
I'm a big advocate for safe operations (who is not?) so its curious why the largest EMS operator in the US, who is using all kinds of NVG etc., doesn't require CAT A for their takeoffs (at least from base hospital pad).
As far as your other statement goes (I'm not connected to anybody involved, so I'm definetely not offended) - I have very little time in an EC135 a while back, so I stand to be corrected, but I thought that once you put those little yellow knobs to "flight" there's no throttle to forget? ...and since the aircraft (evidently) can't hover on one engine, the pilot must have at least got that part right?
I will try to remember to ask the guys next door what their findings where in a few days (weeks) time.
Bravo73: the trailer was parked I believe in the adjoining lot (the forced landing area) not on their pad.
If you don't mind me asking... how can payload be an issue on this side of the pond but not in europe?
I'm specifically talking about the ADAC in Germany, operating EC135 P1's CAT A from -for example- one of their bases on a parking garage's roof in the middle of town. They too (like the aircraft in question) operate with pilot, paramedic on the left seat and a nurse (or doctor) in the back.
Are they trying to maximise the fuel load over here, or using heavier nurse's (ups! did I just say that?
)?I'm a big advocate for safe operations (who is not?) so its curious why the largest EMS operator in the US, who is using all kinds of NVG etc., doesn't require CAT A for their takeoffs (at least from base hospital pad).
As far as your other statement goes (I'm not connected to anybody involved, so I'm definetely not offended) - I have very little time in an EC135 a while back, so I stand to be corrected, but I thought that once you put those little yellow knobs to "flight" there's no throttle to forget? ...and since the aircraft (evidently) can't hover on one engine, the pilot must have at least got that part right?
I will try to remember to ask the guys next door what their findings where in a few days (weeks) time.
Bravo73: the trailer was parked I believe in the adjoining lot (the forced landing area) not on their pad.
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From: US
IF one is ever concerned about a pilot not handling engines correctly, or not having both up to the flight gate, a handy solution is any time the collective is moved, or being moved, engines matching has to be front and center. Gives one the opportunity to recognize a frozen engine, a frozen engine that is causing the other engine to respond in an unanticipated fashion, a lagging engine, etc. etc.
Years ago a bright BH212 Captain on the Brent lowered the collective lever to note the Nr going down - clever fellow undid what he did last, which was lower the lever shortly followed by raising the lever and restoration of the Nr, then correctly identified the problem and shut down the affected engine. One wants to catch those problems fast, before they become big ones. That incident could have been a ditching. Sounds brain dead but it isn't for some!
Years ago a bright BH212 Captain on the Brent lowered the collective lever to note the Nr going down - clever fellow undid what he did last, which was lower the lever shortly followed by raising the lever and restoration of the Nr, then correctly identified the problem and shut down the affected engine. One wants to catch those problems fast, before they become big ones. That incident could have been a ditching. Sounds brain dead but it isn't for some!
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From: UK
arismount,
It was a genuine question, I'm afraid. I don't fly the EC135 but by all accounts (including those above), it is a very capable Cat A aircraft. Even if the regulations don't require you to operate a certain way, surely common sense and 'safety sense' should encourage you to act in this manner if you can?
Otherwise, why bother using a twin? Why not just use a powerful single? It would be much cheaper to operate and at least that way, you are halving your chances of an engine failure on t/o resulting in an accident...
Phill77 - thanks for the updated detail.
It was a genuine question, I'm afraid. I don't fly the EC135 but by all accounts (including those above), it is a very capable Cat A aircraft. Even if the regulations don't require you to operate a certain way, surely common sense and 'safety sense' should encourage you to act in this manner if you can?
Otherwise, why bother using a twin? Why not just use a powerful single? It would be much cheaper to operate and at least that way, you are halving your chances of an engine failure on t/o resulting in an accident...
Phill77 - thanks for the updated detail.
Last edited by Bravo73; 3rd June 2008 at 11:09. Reason: To thank Phil77
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From: Philadelphia PA
I'm submitting this reply only to clarify the situation with regard to the engines, not to infer that the pilot in this case did anything wrong.
The P&W 206/207 engine installation in a lot of helicopters is controlled by two small knobs that have three positions - off, idle, and fly. The throttles are used only if the DEC is put in manual mode.
So checking throttle position isn't going to do any good.
Unfortunately, all the helicopters with these engines have had way too many instances of the pilot trying to take off with one engine at idle and one at fly.
The performance for most of these helicopters on one engine is so good that you can hover on one engine at about 3' AGL without exceeding any limits or drooping the rotor RPM.
Lots of folks have done this, some with very embarrassing results, and despite a plethora of indications that one engine is at idle and one at fly.
As for those who claim it couldn't happen if the pilots were properly trained and had type ratings, I believe it has happened several times in Europe...
The only helicopter that I know with these engines that doesn't use the knobs is the Bell 427. I believe the 429 is similar.
The P&W 206/207 engine installation in a lot of helicopters is controlled by two small knobs that have three positions - off, idle, and fly. The throttles are used only if the DEC is put in manual mode.
So checking throttle position isn't going to do any good.
Unfortunately, all the helicopters with these engines have had way too many instances of the pilot trying to take off with one engine at idle and one at fly.
The performance for most of these helicopters on one engine is so good that you can hover on one engine at about 3' AGL without exceeding any limits or drooping the rotor RPM.
Lots of folks have done this, some with very embarrassing results, and despite a plethora of indications that one engine is at idle and one at fly.
As for those who claim it couldn't happen if the pilots were properly trained and had type ratings, I believe it has happened several times in Europe...
The only helicopter that I know with these engines that doesn't use the knobs is the Bell 427. I believe the 429 is similar.
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From: Liverpool based Geordie, so calm down, calm down kidda!!
Our first item in the pretakeoff checklist...... Engine Mains - Flight. This is done as challenge and response, even though we are technically a single pilot operation. The observer reads the list.
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From: europe
135 has great single engine performance, Category A is dependent on using the correct profile for the departure area, if you have less than a minimum of 250 metres in front of you it aint a clear area departure and one of ECD's other profiles are necessary to maintain Cat A compliance (short field departure, VTOL etc). Also Cat A compliance is dependent on the driver checking his WAT limits in the charts. Fact remains that full Cat A compliance is not compulsory out of most sites so if one decides not to comply with Cat A standard and to take an extra Pax instead its up to you to ensure you have a sufficient take off area.
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From: After all, what’s more important than proving to someone on the internet that they’re wrong? - Manson
Shawn,
The EC types don't use knobs either, its a switch. Maybe you were thinking of the Agusta 109 where they can be either on the roof or on the centre console, go figure.
The 135 and 155 are effectively the same configuration and use a gated SWITCH with a safety bar to stop return past the IDLE position if you remember to install it of course.
To be different the 145 has a START switch in this position and uses twistgrip throttles and the 155 has NO throttles.
In fact there is a "quick start" procedure on the 135. Startup - SWITCH both engines to "FLY". The system will start one engine and then the other in sequence. It can incur additional cycles on the engines though.
There have been quite of few problems with the 135 with people not understanding the systems resulting in "overtorque and overspeed". Even within EC's own ranks!
There are issues if you float between 135 and 145. They possibly look similar enough on a dark night in the cockpit to forget which one you are flying!
If as some are alluding to MAY have been the case here, what would a huge FLI needle split mean to most people? And the fact that you have just dragged the needle past the TO position and nothing has happened?
The EC types don't use knobs either, its a switch. Maybe you were thinking of the Agusta 109 where they can be either on the roof or on the centre console, go figure.
The 135 and 155 are effectively the same configuration and use a gated SWITCH with a safety bar to stop return past the IDLE position if you remember to install it of course.
To be different the 145 has a START switch in this position and uses twistgrip throttles and the 155 has NO throttles.
In fact there is a "quick start" procedure on the 135. Startup - SWITCH both engines to "FLY". The system will start one engine and then the other in sequence. It can incur additional cycles on the engines though.
There have been quite of few problems with the 135 with people not understanding the systems resulting in "overtorque and overspeed". Even within EC's own ranks!
There are issues if you float between 135 and 145. They possibly look similar enough on a dark night in the cockpit to forget which one you are flying!
If as some are alluding to MAY have been the case here, what would a huge FLI needle split mean to most people? And the fact that you have just dragged the needle past the TO position and nothing has happened?
Joined: Jun 2001
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From: Europe
I'm specifically talking about the ADAC in Germany, operating EC135 P1's CAT A from -for example- one of their bases on a parking garage's roof in the middle of town. They too (like the aircraft in question) operate with pilot, paramedic on the left seat and a nurse (or doctor) in the back.
At the moment (in summer) they carry usually fuel for only round about 60 minutes. And in EMS i'm interested to see the ships and pilots allways using Cat A profiles
Unfortunately, all the helicopters with these engines have had way too many instances of the pilot trying to take off with one engine at idle and one at fly.
The performance for most of these helicopters on one engine is so good that you can hover on one engine at about 3' AGL without exceeding any limits or drooping the rotor RPM.
The performance for most of these helicopters on one engine is so good that you can hover on one engine at about 3' AGL without exceeding any limits or drooping the rotor RPM.
BTW in the newer versions of the EC 135 there is a way that the FADEC is able to reduce the RPM while reaching the torque limits to avoid overtorque. But that makes hovering not easier
