Hercules inquest.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: @exRAF_Al
Posts: 3,297
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hercules inquest.
<US Air Force Hercules have had ESF since the 1960s. Following the crash, the MoD pledged to fit all RAF Hercules with ESF, and a spokesman said that between 20 and 30 planes now have the foam.>
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/w...re/7324341.stm
I hope a few people have the decency to choke on their port at the 90th bash tonight.
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...215665&page=70
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/w...re/7324341.stm
I hope a few people have the decency to choke on their port at the 90th bash tonight.
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...215665&page=70
I see the BBC star again ... another picture of a "J" against this report.
You would have thought they would have the decency to TRY and be accurate. Just makes you wonder what else they don't check before publishing.
Between the Beeb and the Government I have very little faith that the truth about this tragic incident will actually come out.
Sorry ... my cynicism is showing.
You would have thought they would have the decency to TRY and be accurate. Just makes you wonder what else they don't check before publishing.
Between the Beeb and the Government I have very little faith that the truth about this tragic incident will actually come out.
Sorry ... my cynicism is showing.
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: between one and the other
Posts: 78
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Omega V6,
Your cynicism is healthy, but not your naivity. When was the last time that the truth about an accident/incident was published? The embarassment of senior officers is more important than the rantings of a master. God Bless, Gary Nicholson, you are not forgotten!
Your cynicism is healthy, but not your naivity. When was the last time that the truth about an accident/incident was published? The embarassment of senior officers is more important than the rantings of a master. God Bless, Gary Nicholson, you are not forgotten!
The Enemy
RIP again to those who lost their lives; I still think of their bereaved families and friends.
I may have missed an important part of the news but I thought that it was the enemy that shot the C130 down, not the Air Force Board. Perhaps you might better focus your ire on the murderers of those fine men.
I may have missed an important part of the news but I thought that it was the enemy that shot the C130 down, not the Air Force Board. Perhaps you might better focus your ire on the murderers of those fine men.
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Under the clag EGKA
Posts: 1,026
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Between the Beeb and the Government I have very little faith that the truth about this tragic incident will actually come out
I see the BBC star again ... another picture of a "J" against this report.
I have been at the inquest for its first two days, and I will be going again. I can tell you that the Beeb has an intelligent and sharp team there who do know what they're talking about. I believe the wrong pic is probably down to someone in their website team who doesn't know better - but you shouldn't tar the whole BBC coverage with that error.
Going to be heard "in camera", a disgrace but unsurprising.
I recommend the coverage of Thomas Harding, Def Corr of the Torygraph.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...2/wiraq102.xml
airsound
I thought that it was the enemy that shot the C130 down, not the Air Force Board. Perhaps you might better focus your ire on the murderers of those fine men.
Last edited by Chugalug2; 2nd Apr 2008 at 11:24.
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Under the clag EGKA
Posts: 1,026
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
airsound
Thank you for correcting my false impression. I spent several months of my life at a BoI and I became very jaded. I am glad that our Coronial system is holding up. I understand that HMG is trying to arrange "special" Coroners for "special" cases. I am dubious.
Thank you for correcting my false impression. I spent several months of my life at a BoI and I became very jaded. I am glad that our Coronial system is holding up. I understand that HMG is trying to arrange "special" Coroners for "special" cases. I am dubious.
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 737
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Chugalug2
Playing Devil's Advocate:-
Chug - You make that statement as if there are reams of documentary evidence of requests for ESF. Are there?
I had not heard of ESF until after the loss of XV179.
We are often our own worst enemy, and all three of the issues being studied:-
1. ESF
2. Low Level in daylight
3. Intelligence failure
Would all seem to me to be failures at Herc Fleet/Sqn Exec level
Please don't think I'm standing up for the gov't, mind.
Time and time again the need for the fitting of Explosion Suppressant Foam to the fuel tanks was made. Time and time again the call was ignored.
Chug - You make that statement as if there are reams of documentary evidence of requests for ESF. Are there?
I had not heard of ESF until after the loss of XV179.
We are often our own worst enemy, and all three of the issues being studied:-
1. ESF
2. Low Level in daylight
3. Intelligence failure
Would all seem to me to be failures at Herc Fleet/Sqn Exec level
Please don't think I'm standing up for the gov't, mind.
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: GONE BY 2012
Age: 51
Posts: 151
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
SPHLC:-
First request for ESF post Op CORPORATE 1983
Second request for ESF post Op GRANBY 1992
Low level in daylight - to be discussed by the inquest
Intelligence - always been a problem in fluid situations
I, however, lay the blame on those individuals who elected not to fit ESF as a cost-saving measure:- the IPT, 2Gp, STC/AIR and MOD.
The sqn/fleet exec have always tried to manage risk, balanced against supporting UK ops, to the best of their ability and knowledge.
It would be nice to lay the legacy of XV179 to rest in the knowledge that we have an open, honest answer to the shortfalls in protecting our crews.
First request for ESF post Op CORPORATE 1983
Second request for ESF post Op GRANBY 1992
Low level in daylight - to be discussed by the inquest
Intelligence - always been a problem in fluid situations
I, however, lay the blame on those individuals who elected not to fit ESF as a cost-saving measure:- the IPT, 2Gp, STC/AIR and MOD.
The sqn/fleet exec have always tried to manage risk, balanced against supporting UK ops, to the best of their ability and knowledge.
It would be nice to lay the legacy of XV179 to rest in the knowledge that we have an open, honest answer to the shortfalls in protecting our crews.
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 737
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks Truckkie
From the Inquest
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/w...re/7326714.stm
An RAF warrant officer, who was referred to as witness CD, said in a statement read to the court that in the years prior to the Iraq conflict many modifications had been made to RAF Hercules C130 craft.
"But ESF never featured," said CD, who has since died. "There were always far more important requirements," said his statement, by way of explanation.
I'm sure we're all on the same side, but unless there's documentary evidence, it's all hearsay.
(I see Nige has now commented)
From the Inquest
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/w...re/7326714.stm
An RAF warrant officer, who was referred to as witness CD, said in a statement read to the court that in the years prior to the Iraq conflict many modifications had been made to RAF Hercules C130 craft.
"But ESF never featured," said CD, who has since died. "There were always far more important requirements," said his statement, by way of explanation.
I'm sure we're all on the same side, but unless there's documentary evidence, it's all hearsay.
(I see Nige has now commented)
You beat me to it, Truckkie.
However, I understand that evidence will be presented that several significantly earlier requests for ESF were made.
On the question of intelligence failure, that was said at the Inquest not to be at squadron or "herc fleet" level, but to be a systemic inter-service (and perhaps international) communication failure. The failure has allegedly been addressed.
airsound
However, I understand that evidence will be presented that several significantly earlier requests for ESF were made.
On the question of intelligence failure, that was said at the Inquest not to be at squadron or "herc fleet" level, but to be a systemic inter-service (and perhaps international) communication failure. The failure has allegedly been addressed.
airsound
Last edited by airsound; 2nd Apr 2008 at 17:54. Reason: speling of T's name
Chug - You make that statement as if there are reams of documentary evidence of requests for ESF. Are there?
I had not heard of ESF until after the loss of XV179.
I had not heard of ESF until after the loss of XV179.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: @exRAF_Al
Posts: 3,297
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Whether or not the kit was asked for is a red herring. Everyone knew it existed, everyone knew its benefits. For god’s sake.. Hurricane tank busters had the equiv in North Africa (does the SH fleet by the way?).
And are we really saying that Townsend Thoresen was justified in not having bow door lamps fitted because nobody thought to 'ask for them', or that it was ok for coppers to allow hundreds of fans into a melee at Hillsborough because no one thought 'to ask'.. or that it was ok for Network Rail to allow chocolate fireguard signals points to be used at Potters Bar because no one thought 'to ask' that someone had been doing his job properly? The RAF higher echelon (as did most appropriate people I imagine) knew about the benefits of ESF and the fact that it wasn’t fitted makes the RAF look (at best) like a parsimonious Third World cake and arse party.
The default setting should have been to have had it, simple. End of story. If the staff default setting wasn’t “I’m all right Jack”, perhaps we might have staff officers being professional and using their brains, and remembering whose lives they exist to protect. 'Ask' my arse. What a lamentable excuse, in order to cover your back. If no one thought to ask, then they should be cashiered, taken out and shot (we're long overdue a good cashiering).
Another argument for removing Crown Immunity. And I agree 100% with Airsound. Andrew Walker might be a little too partisan at times, but the coroners are kicking this damned g'ment's arse and calling it to account.
And are we really saying that Townsend Thoresen was justified in not having bow door lamps fitted because nobody thought to 'ask for them', or that it was ok for coppers to allow hundreds of fans into a melee at Hillsborough because no one thought 'to ask'.. or that it was ok for Network Rail to allow chocolate fireguard signals points to be used at Potters Bar because no one thought 'to ask' that someone had been doing his job properly? The RAF higher echelon (as did most appropriate people I imagine) knew about the benefits of ESF and the fact that it wasn’t fitted makes the RAF look (at best) like a parsimonious Third World cake and arse party.
The default setting should have been to have had it, simple. End of story. If the staff default setting wasn’t “I’m all right Jack”, perhaps we might have staff officers being professional and using their brains, and remembering whose lives they exist to protect. 'Ask' my arse. What a lamentable excuse, in order to cover your back. If no one thought to ask, then they should be cashiered, taken out and shot (we're long overdue a good cashiering).
Another argument for removing Crown Immunity. And I agree 100% with Airsound. Andrew Walker might be a little too partisan at times, but the coroners are kicking this damned g'ment's arse and calling it to account.