AR Capable Helos but no tankers
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AR Capable Helos but no tankers
Why has the RAF got Air Refuelling capable Merlins but no tanker to actually do the job? Why did we scrap the C-130K tankers?
Do RAF Merlin crews actually train for AR and if so, what with? or do they just fit that IFR probe just for the sake of Airshows?
With an event like what happened a few years ago in the SW approaches which could happen again, the UK does not have any helicopters capable of that range which was required back then when coming to the aid of a yacht well out of range of the Seakings.
We relied upon the help of MH-53M's refuelling several times from MC-130P Shadows (and a KC135 to refuel the Shadows) to rescue the injured person.
Why have AR capable Merlins but nothing to tank them in the first place.
The same question goes to when we acquired the Chinook HC3 which also has IFR probes (and taken off).
Do RAF Merlin crews actually train for AR and if so, what with? or do they just fit that IFR probe just for the sake of Airshows?
With an event like what happened a few years ago in the SW approaches which could happen again, the UK does not have any helicopters capable of that range which was required back then when coming to the aid of a yacht well out of range of the Seakings.
We relied upon the help of MH-53M's refuelling several times from MC-130P Shadows (and a KC135 to refuel the Shadows) to rescue the injured person.
Why have AR capable Merlins but nothing to tank them in the first place.
The same question goes to when we acquired the Chinook HC3 which also has IFR probes (and taken off).
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Why did we scrap the C-130K tankers?
Why have AR capable Merlins but nothing to tank them in the first place.
The only re-fuelling training done by the crews is generally done in the bar when the alcohol level drops 
But to be fair, the Merlin has some pretty long legs anyway, fit an extended range tank down the back and you can go an awfully long way for a helo. So it already does pretty much everything it needs to do for the time being.
Being fitted for AAR would be handy if the JPR side of the house ever gets re-established, but again, you would then need suitable tankers to refuel from ... Merlin might be a nippy helicopter, but it won't be keeping up with the VC-10s. And as we can't even get the replacement for the 10s sorted out, I don't think we will see a Merlin specific refuelling capability for a long time if ever. But I'm pretty sure that the AAR capability was something pushed quite hard when we tried to flog it to the US as part of the CSAR-X programme!
But to be fair, the Merlin has some pretty long legs anyway, fit an extended range tank down the back and you can go an awfully long way for a helo. So it already does pretty much everything it needs to do for the time being.
Being fitted for AAR would be handy if the JPR side of the house ever gets re-established, but again, you would then need suitable tankers to refuel from ... Merlin might be a nippy helicopter, but it won't be keeping up with the VC-10s. And as we can't even get the replacement for the 10s sorted out, I don't think we will see a Merlin specific refuelling capability for a long time if ever. But I'm pretty sure that the AAR capability was something pushed quite hard when we tried to flog it to the US as part of the CSAR-X programme!
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It could be that, for once, we designed in/purchased a capability we might need in the future, rather that having to pay for it later when actually needed?
Tanker capability could be provided by wing pods in the Hercules/A400M
Tanker capability could be provided by wing pods in the Hercules/A400M
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Ah the C130K Tankers! ; a lost opportunity if ever there was one! These were taken out of service and subsequently examined by Marshalls, who found to their surprise they were not as s****d as once thought, They were later sold on to the Sri Lankans who are still flying them today!::
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They were later sold on to the Sri Lankans who are still flying them today!::
At the MSHATF at Benson, back in early 2002 when I thrashed around in the Merlin Sim, I asked one of the instructors if they were considering running programs for AAR and think they said they were either work in progress for developing the program.
Only advantage of AAR is PRV/CSAR
Only advantage of AAR is PRV/CSAR
Chopper 2004,
Not strictly true.
AAR is also an important player in rapid long range self deployment. Although we do it at the moment with HNS and internal tanks, AAR would significantly speed up the process and make us less reliant on third parties.
Secondly, fitting internal tanks causes a proportionate loss of space/payload and can contribute to CoG issues. Also, the pwr required to do a take off v Cruise would seem to show that a heavily loaded helo could launch at a low fuel state and then tank-up once established in the cruise. So AAR can be claimed to have benefits outside JPR/CSAR (or whatever we're calling it this week).
At least no-one has suggested running a HDU off the ramp of a Chinook yet; Flying FARP anyone..?
Not strictly true.
AAR is also an important player in rapid long range self deployment. Although we do it at the moment with HNS and internal tanks, AAR would significantly speed up the process and make us less reliant on third parties.
Secondly, fitting internal tanks causes a proportionate loss of space/payload and can contribute to CoG issues. Also, the pwr required to do a take off v Cruise would seem to show that a heavily loaded helo could launch at a low fuel state and then tank-up once established in the cruise. So AAR can be claimed to have benefits outside JPR/CSAR (or whatever we're calling it this week).
At least no-one has suggested running a HDU off the ramp of a Chinook yet; Flying FARP anyone..?
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There remains an aspiration to provide helicopter SAR throughout the UK Search and Rescue Region (UKSRR). This extends to 30 West. I'm not entirely sure if a Chinook with a full set of internal tanks can do that. I'm fairly sure that nothing else can without AAR. I do know that the last time a helo SAROp was done from England at anything like the edge of the UKSRR, our ex-colonial cousins kindly provided the capability including both tanker and receiver.
So, when a politician needs a gesture to the world of international aviation or maritime agreements, expect a flurry of activity!
yours cynically
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So, when a politician needs a gesture to the world of international aviation or maritime agreements, expect a flurry of activity!
yours cynically
Sven
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Currency
The AAR skills required (and currency in them) plus the assets needed and not in any small way the cost precludes SH/SAR AAR. In reality the number of occasions in which it would be useful doubtlessly out weigh the costs. I have made it to 141/2 west with a final top up on the road on the edge of a small Scotish Island (all to do with a gravity top up) and still had 12 minutes on scene (thanks for finding it Nimrod) but with so many calls on a cash strapped budget I thing the support I regularly had from Tizwaz or on a rare occasion a FARP C130 was more useful and cost effective asset. Don't get me wrong if it were available I'd vote for Rotary AAR and the Osprey but hey it's only a dream.
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Funnily enough after i started the thread, just so happens a NOTAM has been issued for AAR between a C-130 and Helicopters over Somerset and Dorset originating from a Yeovil telephone number (Westlands Merlin trial?)
The only other Helos capable of AR in the UK at the moment are the two HH-60's at Lakenheath but they prefer the North Sea.
Start date/time: 05/02/2008 09:00 UTC
End date/time: 22/02/2008 16:30 UTC
Activity period: 0900-1630
Lower height limit: 020
Upper height limit: 040
AAR TRAIL WILL TAKE PLACE 4NM EITHER SIDE OF A TRACK BETWEEN
505130N0025630W AND 505330N0020655W INVOLVING ONE C130 AND UP TO TWO HELICOPTERS IN VMC CONDITIONS ONLY. THE FORMATION MAY BE UNABLE TO COMPLY WITH THE RULES OF THE AIR. (between Chard and Blandford Camp basically)
The only other Helos capable of AR in the UK at the moment are the two HH-60's at Lakenheath but they prefer the North Sea.
Start date/time: 05/02/2008 09:00 UTC
End date/time: 22/02/2008 16:30 UTC
Activity period: 0900-1630
Lower height limit: 020
Upper height limit: 040
AAR TRAIL WILL TAKE PLACE 4NM EITHER SIDE OF A TRACK BETWEEN
505130N0025630W AND 505330N0020655W INVOLVING ONE C130 AND UP TO TWO HELICOPTERS IN VMC CONDITIONS ONLY. THE FORMATION MAY BE UNABLE TO COMPLY WITH THE RULES OF THE AIR. (between Chard and Blandford Camp basically)
Last edited by Razor61; 30th Jan 2008 at 14:11.
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The AAR probe was very handy during trials of the first RAF variant, saved us having to build our own instrumentation probe.
Have also done a long range test with ferry tanks fitted (pre-production model, so 4 main tanks and 2 ferry tanks, slightly more fuel than the Merlin with 5 tanks plus 1 ferry tank), and was airborne for just over 8 hours.
For that much time, they really need to put a toilet in as well.
Have also done a long range test with ferry tanks fitted (pre-production model, so 4 main tanks and 2 ferry tanks, slightly more fuel than the Merlin with 5 tanks plus 1 ferry tank), and was airborne for just over 8 hours.
For that much time, they really need to put a toilet in as well.
