postcard

Onion quoted:-

"Heslop2006 MME catchment area is bigger than NCL so to argue that one is just silly. If it is advertised right by travel agents etc it would sell if it was at MME".

Interesting information from Onion..

Looking forward to seeing what that statement is based on...is it 5 ,10,20,30,40 mile radius of DTV or just a radius until proven?



Continuation of: http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...245932&page=14

CentreFix25

The catchment discussion has been had before. MME has a bigger catchment within 2 hours drive, NCL has bigger with in 1 hours drive. I'm quoting myself here from about a year ago, 'i live with in the 2 hour catchment of MME, but would have to drive South on the A1 past NCL to get there. Unless MME has something to offer that NCL, LBA, DSA doesnt the 2 hour rule will never come into play.

postcard

Good point centrefix-However the time factor element is open to question-especially with the state of NE roads and ongoing congestion ? Dont forget not everyone drives to our airports.

I feel there are Five parts to the equation of a successful airport operation.

1)Availability of airline services
2)Population including catchment area
3)Flight Costs
4)Airport accessability
5)Airport infrastucture...inc.terminal and facilities .

The first of course being the main ingredient !!

If you have all five you should/could have a successful brand?
I would imagine..obtaining point one is the most difficult?

So where, using this little list does DTV measure up to?

mmeteesside

1)Availability of airline services
2)Population including catchment area
3)Flight Costs
4)Airport accessability
5)Airport infrastucture...inc.terminal and facilities .

Well for DTV....
1) Not brilliant but getting better....
2) Catchment area as mentioned within 2 hours is bigger than NCL (*NCL bigger within an hour)
3) Flight Costs - roughly the same on the same routes.
4) Airport Accessibility - better than LBA, possibly NCL imo
5) Airport Terminal, well not brilliant at the moment, quick to get through on arrival, getting better though!

SWBKCB

2) Catchment area as mentioned within 2 hours is bigger than NCL (*NCL bigger within an hour)
4) Airport Accessibility - better than LBA, possibly NCL imo
There may be more people within a two hour drive but most of these will be nearer to NCL, LBA or DSA than to MME so as CentreFix25 said, until MME offers something that the others don't why should they drive further to get to MME??
As for accessibilty - anywhere's get better access than LBA, but NCL's got a Metro link to the nearest major conurbation and is at the end of a dual carriageway spur from the regions (admittedly increasingly congested) road route where as MME is in the middle of nowhere (a bit harsh, I know - but it's not the easiest place to get to...)
and when are they going to sort out those roadsigns!!!

onion

I hope this finishes the catchment area argument once and for all

from “The future development of air transport in the UK: North of England”

Page 42, Table 2.2 ‘Population Catchment’

1 hour road catchement population

MAN 5-7 million
LPL 5-7 million
LBA 3-5 million
MME 2-3 million
NCL 2-3 million
HUY 0.6 – 1 million

2 hour road catchment population

LBA 16-18 million
MAN 15-17 million
LPL 13-15 million
HUY 10-11 million
MME 6-7 million
NCL 3-4 million


data per DLTR NAAM model.

So as we can see NCL and MME have the same population living within an hour drive, neither is credited with a bigger population. Within 2 hours drive though MME wins hands down. True there are many other factors that come into play, like what routes and frequency is on offer.
I know people say that they wont travel past NCL or LBA to get to MME if there the same flights but that is just not true. Many travel to MME from within Newcastle to get flights to Spain. I ve seen it and actually been in the terminal when people living in Newcastle have gone out to Spain. Also people do actually drive past MME to get to NCL when there are the same flights on the same day etc. This is often down to travel agents pushing NCL.

Postcard I think you should know me by now not to argue. Think I have proven it now!

SWBKCB

There's been a couple of references in recent posts to travel agents pushing NCL over MME (presumably this doesn't apply to those who live in Newcastle who have driven to MME to fly to Spain...), but why would they do this - laziness, lack of awareness or are they getting commercial incentives?
Oh, and do those pax on the way to NCL drive past Teesside or Durham Tees Valley?
and to prove you can do anything with numbers, shouldn't HUY be twice as big as MME...

onion

SWBKCB going by the figures yes, HUY should be bigger than MME and NCL, but we aren't talking bout HUY here are we. I'm just backing up my point and responding to postcard who said.

"Interesting information from Onion..

Looking forward to seeing what that statement is based on...is it 5 ,10,20,30,40 mile radius of DTV or just a radius until proven?"

Just trying to keep this all based on facts not fiction like some will have you believe.

postcard

Thanks Onion for that informative reply..now we all know the true facts-which of course was all I really wanted>
Sorry Didnt realise query was number 27 in a series of 46 arguments??

Still begs the question though why is DTV after 30+ years of trying-still light years away from being a successful regional airport?

Over to you Onion....

SWBKCB

A bit harsh - suppose it depends on your criteria for success. For Peel it will be does/will it make money and for the local authorities it will be does it support the local economy (generating income through jobs and providing access for business users and tourists) and for the locals it will be can I get to where I want to go with the minimum effort and cost.
Don't know the answer to the first one but for the second two I would have thought the answer is yes but could do better.

mmeman

Do you not think that MME has been pretty successful considering the amount of competition it faces from NCL and LBA? Everywhere you look in the area ther are adverts from Jet2 and easyjet enticing you to fly from NCL or LBA. would you call 900,000 passengers a year not successful, considering the size of the airport? Losing bmibaby was a huge blow, but do you not agree that some of the routes bmibaby operated were not the best choices, i.e Cork, Knock and Belfast. It was as if they were saying that we fly to these places from our other bases, so they must be successful from MME too, when clearly they were not going to be that successful. They were tryint to fit MME into their existing route structure, instead of finding different routes that would be successful from MME. Flyglobespan have picked up the most successful routes and added more routes to the sunshine destinations that they know are going to be successful. And if they are getting 900,000 passenegers from a 1hr drive catchment area of 2-3 million people, it is not doing too badly. Maybe we should have this debate in a years time to see how next summer goes, and the new Wizz route to Warsaw.

DTVAirport

The way I see it is, I agree with what mmeman said, but at the same time, I do think we should be doing better.

But at the end of the day, when the LCC boom first began, we missed the boat and as a result we're playing catch-up to NCL and LBA, and that's the point - we're not catching up, the gap between us and NCL is not closing like it should be.

Regards.

onion

Depends on what you class as success. MME may not be doing as well as it should be in terms of pax numbers, but there are many other criteria to include. MME has Flight Precision and FRA two very large users of the airport, ok not large aircraft but they do put money and movements through the airport. Then there is the flying schools, ok again not big business but providing a service to all those who want to become pilots. Then you have TNT ok again only a small item but MME is there European maintenance base for the 146. Then you have the Fire School providing an invaluable service again. On top of this MME is used by many airlines for training and just over the past few days Ryanair, Jet2 and Flyglobespan have all been doing circuits.
I believe that too many people put to much emphasis on pax numbers at airports. Yes more often than not it is what counts and is usually what most airports are judged on, but what is a successful airport?

MME4eva

To add my 10pence worth on the catchment area discussion I think as long as DTV works hard to ensure that pax from North Yorkshire up to Durham/Sunderland see MME as their local airport rather than NCL and LBA and offer them services that they want and will use (i.e. the costas bucket and spade short haul and cheap city breaks) rather than peculiar experiments (e.g. Knock) then they have done all they can given the only city in that area is Durham (relatively small) and a lot the catchment are is actually rural (a problem shared by HUY)

I think MME should see attracting Newcastle/Leeds people as a pure bonus as let's face it only cost of flights (with the locos) or availibility (with charters)will push them to use MME.

On another front can anyone enlighten me why the BRU morning flight wasn't showing on the arrivals/departures page of the airport website during the festive period?was it operational or did EZE cancel the route as they often do at this time when business pax aren't travelling as much?

EI-BUD

I think that the success of the few FR routes is testament that MME can attract the passengers. I blame WW for its failure at MME.

The marketing ppl at bmibaby have not put bmibaby on the map in an aggressive way. Bmibaby never led the pack and at this stage I cant see them doing it either. Dont get me wrong I know a few ppl who work for WW and its no comment on the employees , as far as I am concerned if bmibaby can make a base like MME work with a very sufficient catchment area they may as well as forget about it. WW have never been headline creating perception . eg FR announce new bases , its all growth and expansion. Bmi were always viewed as a good company , its sad that WW has not been leading the pack, a marvelous opportunity was lost they could have been up there with FR as one of the European LCC leaders. The brand is smart . pity the strategy didnt follow through.

MME has a job on its hand. They need Ryanair in there with a base , whatever it takes. reduced charges? THe volume would make the overall FR business viable. Flybe is also another good one for the smaller markets. I would love to see both these companies come in. To be fair NCL has alot of expertise in its backers CPH ? So a strong airline is need at MME.

Wellington Bomber

SWBKCB

Eastern have a very much reduced schedule during xmas and new year from all bases not just mme. This is I presume to be because it is classed as a business class airline and obviously over holiday periods business is all but stopped.

I am sure if you tried to get to Brussels now you would not have a problem

carbheathot

I don't know if any of the posters on here are accountants, or have access to the balance sheets at MME, but on the face of it things look pretty bleak this winter.Its all very well quoting catchment areas and numbers but there are other factors affecting the economic performance of the airport, ease of access being one, index of social deprivation of the population being another etc.etc.Onion makes a good point about FRA and the other bits and pieces which all contribute to the running of the place,but the current departures board tells its own story.
The important thing now is for Globespan to do the business this summer, in the eighties Yugotours did a good trade at Pula and maybe this will be a winning destination for us smoggies.
I think that Peels hyped up expansion plans won't happen until after at least one full (successful) season, but we shall have to wait and see.

MME4eva

Just received a very efficient e-mail from the route development department of GSM responding to a query about the above route and its continuation past 27th March.

I'm afraid it's a puzzling 'NO' from GSM on this route-they said they will be flying this in winter 07 along with other routes due to be announced in the next 2 months though

I feel this is a bit of a strange one but can only presume it isn't attracting the numbers GSM deems appropriate for a summer route. As much as I love the french riviera i would have thought a TFS route in the summer would have proved more popular than a NCE from MME?

Also looking at the prices still available on the first few flights of the GRO route in Feb does not look like these planes will be full by any means

onion

Are the rumours of the Paris returning and BMI pulling CDG from LBA plus the new 145s their getting linked? Or am I being a little to hopeful?

SWBKCB

bmi seem to be closing their CDG base completely, so seems unlikely that they will replace one regional route with another just up the road (especialy as I would suspect LBA has more of the sort of high-yield pax that bmi are after). However, does release aircraft plus the new Embraers which have to be used for something.