WARNING : France is No Longer JAR Conmpliant!!!
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WARNING : France is No Longer JAR Conmpliant!!!
I have just had a rather worrying telephone call from the CAA. I guess from previous threads on here that it will affect quite a few pilots other than myself.
Since 2000 I have been living and flying here in France with my CAA issued JAA PPL without any problems. In fact until now I have been full of praise for the CAA and the JAR system which allows me to live here in France with my UK issued licence and use French instructors/examiners/doctors to revalidate and renew the licence/ratings/medical easily.
I have just been politely informed by Sally Radcliff from the CAA Medical branch that she will be returning my French issued Class 2 medical certificate because the French are no longer JAR-FCL-111 compliant, and there is nothing she can do to help me about it, its a French problem. She kindly gave me a contact number in Paris for the DGAC, who I have also just spoken to, and the medical department confirms what she has said - namely that France does not issue JAA compliant Class 2 medicals anymore.
It appears my options are:
1. Travel to the UK to get a JAA Class 2 medical 'back home'.
2. Find a JAA compliant country and travel there to get a JAA Class 2 Medical (Spain?Belgium?).
3. Try to get my licence converted to a "'French' JAA-PPL".
In the meantime I can no longer fly until this is sorted as I no longer have a valid medical.
I used to be one of the few who thought that the whole JAA/EASA thing was actually a good thing. No longer. I am absolutely furious that something that worked well for the last 6 years is no longer acceptable. It also confuses me as to why a French PPL is a JAA one when it has a French Class 2 Medical. The whole point of JAA/EASA is to make all states documentation acceptable everywhere in JAR-land etc.
I do not think this bodes well for EASA and makes a mockery of the concept of JAA-Land.
So, if you have a UK issued PPL and have a medical from France, check with the CAA Medical branch that it is still valid or not.
A very p*ss*d off SD...
Since 2000 I have been living and flying here in France with my CAA issued JAA PPL without any problems. In fact until now I have been full of praise for the CAA and the JAR system which allows me to live here in France with my UK issued licence and use French instructors/examiners/doctors to revalidate and renew the licence/ratings/medical easily.
I have just been politely informed by Sally Radcliff from the CAA Medical branch that she will be returning my French issued Class 2 medical certificate because the French are no longer JAR-FCL-111 compliant, and there is nothing she can do to help me about it, its a French problem. She kindly gave me a contact number in Paris for the DGAC, who I have also just spoken to, and the medical department confirms what she has said - namely that France does not issue JAA compliant Class 2 medicals anymore.
It appears my options are:
1. Travel to the UK to get a JAA Class 2 medical 'back home'.
2. Find a JAA compliant country and travel there to get a JAA Class 2 Medical (Spain?Belgium?).
3. Try to get my licence converted to a "'French' JAA-PPL".
In the meantime I can no longer fly until this is sorted as I no longer have a valid medical.
I used to be one of the few who thought that the whole JAA/EASA thing was actually a good thing. No longer. I am absolutely furious that something that worked well for the last 6 years is no longer acceptable. It also confuses me as to why a French PPL is a JAA one when it has a French Class 2 Medical. The whole point of JAA/EASA is to make all states documentation acceptable everywhere in JAR-land etc.
I do not think this bodes well for EASA and makes a mockery of the concept of JAA-Land.So, if you have a UK issued PPL and have a medical from France, check with the CAA Medical branch that it is still valid or not.
A very p*ss*d off SD...
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On a more serious note - I'm not sure how that works in Spain either. What I DO know is that a few professional pilot friends of mine who live in Malaga go to Gibraltar for their (obvioulsy Class 1) medical.
Last edited by 172driver; 12th Oct 2006 at 14:02. Reason: addition of serious note
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Relax. The JAA is not a regulatory body - it's an opt-in agreement. The rise of the EASA will take care of all issues, as it bypasses local regulations, be it France or Ireland. The issue will resolve itself, and not even France can escape the clutches of the EASA.
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How do French PPLs fly outside France now??
Regards, SD.. (less pissed off, just wanting to fly!)
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This may be confusing two issues.
You're a UK PPL flying in France and got a French med cert which the UK did not accept.
A Frenchman with a French med cert can fly his plane overseas or subject to local regulation fly a hire plane with his French license & French Med Cert.
This sounds like a UK CAA -vs- French CAA thing ... entente dis-cordiale
h-r
You're a UK PPL flying in France and got a French med cert which the UK did not accept.
A Frenchman with a French med cert can fly his plane overseas or subject to local regulation fly a hire plane with his French license & French Med Cert.
This sounds like a UK CAA -vs- French CAA thing ... entente dis-cordiale
h-r
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This sounds like a UK CAA -vs- French CAA thing ... entente dis-cordiale
Regards, SD..
Edit to add:As I said above, the DGAC in Paris confirmed what the CAA said, so they agree on something....
Last edited by skydriller; 12th Oct 2006 at 20:22.
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The British Bull vs Esgargo
One thing for sure is that the Belgrano is becoming terrifed of EASA because it means few jobs will remain at the Gatwick Palace. The courtiers are in mutiny. If they can find a problem they'l find it. Anything at all to justify their existance.
What exactly have they said is wrong with the DCAG medical? Mostly likely the form you fill in but could you let us know?
What exactly have they said is wrong with the DCAG medical? Mostly likely the form you fill in but could you let us know?
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The french dont issue JAR Class 2 medicals, whats so tough to understand. They are not JAR FCL 3 compliant.
Its a JAR licence you hold, so you need a JAR medical. Its not a case of CAA vs DGAC, its a case of you not keeping up with the regs.
Its a JAR licence you hold, so you need a JAR medical. Its not a case of CAA vs DGAC, its a case of you not keeping up with the regs.
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So does that mean that all French PPLs with JAR licences are flying illegally in France if they aren't issued with JAA medicals by the French authorities? 
If so British airlines should immediately boycott French airspace as in the event of an incident the French pilot cannot possibly be insured.
If so British airlines should immediately boycott French airspace as in the event of an incident the French pilot cannot possibly be insured.
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Like the UK with the NPPL, France is entitled to do what it likes within its airspace, on licenses, ratings, and medicals.
However, a French PPL cannot go outside France (without a permission from the other State(s)) unless his license and medical are at least ICAO compliant.
AIUI, a French JAA PPL holder can't leave France unless his medical is JAA compliant too.
But if the French PPL was not a JAA PPL (like the old CAA PPL was not a JAA PPL) then a non-JAA (but ICAO compliant) medical will be OK abroad.
I hope I got the above right! EASA is going to displace all this cr*p very soon. The funniest thing is that EASA (a body set up originally for Airbus certification, and Airbus is largely French) is almost wholly French run
It is no doubt true that few French pilots ever go outside France but that's irrelevant because some clearly do. There was one around here the other day, quite unable to locate some stupid VRP (totally unsuprisingly; many VRPs are impossible to find unless you know them).
However, a French PPL cannot go outside France (without a permission from the other State(s)) unless his license and medical are at least ICAO compliant.
AIUI, a French JAA PPL holder can't leave France unless his medical is JAA compliant too.
But if the French PPL was not a JAA PPL (like the old CAA PPL was not a JAA PPL) then a non-JAA (but ICAO compliant) medical will be OK abroad.
I hope I got the above right! EASA is going to displace all this cr*p very soon. The funniest thing is that EASA (a body set up originally for Airbus certification, and Airbus is largely French) is almost wholly French run
It is no doubt true that few French pilots ever go outside France but that's irrelevant because some clearly do. There was one around here the other day, quite unable to locate some stupid VRP (totally unsuprisingly; many VRPs are impossible to find unless you know them).
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It seems that the answer is in the title of the thread.
JAR-FCL 1.015(a)(1) states "Where a person, an organisation or a service has been licensed, issued with a rating, authorisation, approval or certificate by the Authority of a JAA Member State in accordance with the requirements of JAR–FCL and associated procedures, such licences, ratings, authorisations, approvals or certificates shall be accepted without formality by other JAA Member States."So skydriller's beef is not with the JAA or the UK CAA but solely with the French DGAC who have decided not to issue a Class 2 medical that is compliant with JAR-FCL 3. An anti-European stance by the French? Who would have thought such a thing possible??
I'm also at a loss to understand why homeguard should think that the Belgrano is afraid of EASA. As I read the requirements, the Belgrano will be taking on even more staff to cope with the inspection and approval of all training organisations (including Registered Facilities, microlight schools, gliding clubs, etc.) that the EU Regulation mandates. If you think you had it tough under the JAA - you ain't seen nothing yet!
JAR-FCL 1.015(a)(1) states "Where a person, an organisation or a service has been licensed, issued with a rating, authorisation, approval or certificate by the Authority of a JAA Member State in accordance with the requirements of JAR–FCL and associated procedures, such licences, ratings, authorisations, approvals or certificates shall be accepted without formality by other JAA Member States."So skydriller's beef is not with the JAA or the UK CAA but solely with the French DGAC who have decided not to issue a Class 2 medical that is compliant with JAR-FCL 3. An anti-European stance by the French? Who would have thought such a thing possible??
I'm also at a loss to understand why homeguard should think that the Belgrano is afraid of EASA. As I read the requirements, the Belgrano will be taking on even more staff to cope with the inspection and approval of all training organisations (including Registered Facilities, microlight schools, gliding clubs, etc.) that the EU Regulation mandates. If you think you had it tough under the JAA - you ain't seen nothing yet!
If you live in France for more than 175 days a year you can change your State of Licence issue to France, they will issue you with a French JAA licence with no other requirements and your French medical will be valid.
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Paperwork
The EASA stance is that self certification is to be the norm. The authority sets the standard and YOU comply. It is not envisaged by EASA that regular inspections by an authority will be the norm in the future. This means a loss of jobs.
The CAA has traditionally been the opposite with continued inspections to ensure complience. Go back to the period before the JAA. The CAA would make many decisions on the hoof following a written or verbal request. Often the standards set were inconsistant although more humane.
Now, I find it hard to believe that the French are not complient with JAA/EASA. There was a recent case of a Brit living in France who had a similar if not the same problem. The CAA initially refused to accept the French medical not because the standards were non complient but put simply the french paperwork was not part of the UK processing system and therefore was not recognised by the UK. The individual concerned refered the matter to his solicitor. The CAA then accepted his french medical but stated they would not accept it a second time. My question for further info was to discover if your case here was the same.
Here in the UK the CAA appoint Medical Examiners who are required to be 'online'. Paper forms are no longer acceptable my medical friends tell me. Any AME who does not go online can no longer remain appointed. Rather than the french medical standards being non complient this may be a case of the UK not accepting the french paperwork.
The CAA has traditionally been the opposite with continued inspections to ensure complience. Go back to the period before the JAA. The CAA would make many decisions on the hoof following a written or verbal request. Often the standards set were inconsistant although more humane.
Now, I find it hard to believe that the French are not complient with JAA/EASA. There was a recent case of a Brit living in France who had a similar if not the same problem. The CAA initially refused to accept the French medical not because the standards were non complient but put simply the french paperwork was not part of the UK processing system and therefore was not recognised by the UK. The individual concerned refered the matter to his solicitor. The CAA then accepted his french medical but stated they would not accept it a second time. My question for further info was to discover if your case here was the same.
Here in the UK the CAA appoint Medical Examiners who are required to be 'online'. Paper forms are no longer acceptable my medical friends tell me. Any AME who does not go online can no longer remain appointed. Rather than the french medical standards being non complient this may be a case of the UK not accepting the french paperwork.
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...Reason being that I have just got off the phone with a couple of officials at the DGAC who tell me they cannot swap my CAA issued licence for a French one, even though I am now resident here, the only way to get a French JAA-PPL would be to do all the exams and flight test again - in French!!!.....
...So I guess I am grounded until I can get to the UK...
Regards, SD..
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I dont suppose you have any reference for this do you? I would really like to be able to quote it if you do.....
...Reason being that I have just got off the phone with a couple of officials at the DGAC who tell me they cannot swap my CAA issued licence for a French one, even though I am now resident here, the only way to get a French JAA-PPL would be to do all the exams and flight test again - in French!!!.....
...So I guess I am grounded until I can get to the UK...
Regards, SD..
...Reason being that I have just got off the phone with a couple of officials at the DGAC who tell me they cannot swap my CAA issued licence for a French one, even though I am now resident here, the only way to get a French JAA-PPL would be to do all the exams and flight test again - in French!!!.....
...So I guess I am grounded until I can get to the UK...
Regards, SD..
As far as the DGAC side is concerned. I recently (about 4-5 months ago) had quite extensive dealings with them over the phone (was helping a friend out, as I speak fluent French). What I found is that you really, really have to make sure you actually are talking to FCL in Paris. After several calls I finally found their number and eventually was even called back (yes. really!) by a charming lady who is the head of FCL. We sorted my friend's problem in no time. The problem with all this was, that none of the people I called first (and my friend had called) volunteered the phone no of FCL. I had to - quite persistently - ask for it. HTH.
PS: I don't have that phone no with me at the moment. If you still have trouble in about 10 days' time, PM me and I'll dig it up.
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What and where
Some confusion is perhaps in the remark 'the french will only issue me a French Licence after I have completed a french test and passed the french exams'.
You do not need a french licence. You may if you wish have the administration of your JAA PPL Licence transfered from the administration of the UK to the administration of France which will resolve your Medical problem but not by this weekend.
The following is cut and past from Lasors 2006;
Mutual Recognition
JAR-FCL 1.015/2.015 states ‘Where a person, an
organisation or a service has been licensed, issued
with a rating, authorisation, approval or certificate by
the Authority of a JAA Member State in accordance
with the requirements of JAR-FCL and associated
procedures, such licences, ratings, approvals or
certificates shall be accepted without formality by other
JAA Member States’.
For the purpose of mutual recognition, when reference
is made to a JAA full Member State that has been
accepted as having fully implemented JAR-FCL and
are approved for the issue of JAR-FCL licences and
ratings.
Validity of Licences and ratings
A licence holder shall not exercise the privileges
granted by any licence or rating issued by a JAA
Member State unless the holder maintains competency
by meeting the relevant requirements of JAR-FCL.
The validity of the licence is determined by the validity
of the ratings contained therein and the medical
certificate.
Further ratings may be obtained
under JAR-FCL requirements in any
JAA Member State and will be
entered into the licence by the State
of licence issue. For administrative
convenience, e.g. revalidation, the
licence holder may subsequently
transfer a licence issued by the
State of licence issue to another
JAA Member State provided that
employment or normal residency is
established in that State. That State
would thereafter become the State of
licence issue and would assume the
responsibility for licence issue. An
applicant shall hold only one
JAR-FCL licence for each category
of aircraft and only one medical
certificate at any time.
You do not need a french licence. You may if you wish have the administration of your JAA PPL Licence transfered from the administration of the UK to the administration of France which will resolve your Medical problem but not by this weekend.
The following is cut and past from Lasors 2006;
Mutual Recognition
JAR-FCL 1.015/2.015 states ‘Where a person, an
organisation or a service has been licensed, issued
with a rating, authorisation, approval or certificate by
the Authority of a JAA Member State in accordance
with the requirements of JAR-FCL and associated
procedures, such licences, ratings, approvals or
certificates shall be accepted without formality by other
JAA Member States’.
For the purpose of mutual recognition, when reference
is made to a JAA full Member State that has been
accepted as having fully implemented JAR-FCL and
are approved for the issue of JAR-FCL licences and
ratings.
Validity of Licences and ratings
A licence holder shall not exercise the privileges
granted by any licence or rating issued by a JAA
Member State unless the holder maintains competency
by meeting the relevant requirements of JAR-FCL.
The validity of the licence is determined by the validity
of the ratings contained therein and the medical
certificate.
Further ratings may be obtained
under JAR-FCL requirements in any
JAA Member State and will be
entered into the licence by the State
of licence issue. For administrative
convenience, e.g. revalidation, the
licence holder may subsequently
transfer a licence issued by the
State of licence issue to another
JAA Member State provided that
employment or normal residency is
established in that State. That State
would thereafter become the State of
licence issue and would assume the
responsibility for licence issue. An
applicant shall hold only one
JAR-FCL licence for each category
of aircraft and only one medical
certificate at any time.
JAR–FCL 1.015
(a) Licences, ratings, authorisations, approvals or certificates issued by JAA Member States
(1) Where a person, an organisation or a service has been licensed, issued with a rating, authorisation, approval or certificate by the Authority of a JAA Member State in accordance with the requirements of JAR–FCL and associated procedures, such licences, ratings, authorisations, approvals or certificates shall be accepted without formality by other JAA Member States.
JAR–FCL 1.065
(d) For administrative convenience, e.g. revalidation, the licence holder may subsequently transfer a licence issued by the State of licence issue to another JAA Member State, provided that employment or normal residency is established in that State (see JAR–FCL 1.070). That State would thereafter become the State of licence issue and would assume the responsibility for licence issue referred to in (a) above
JAR–FCL 1.070 Normal residency
Normal residency means the place where a person usually lives for at least 185 days in each calendar year because of personal and occupational ties or, in the case of a person with no occupational ties, because of personal ties which show close links between that person and the place where she or he is living.
(a) Licences, ratings, authorisations, approvals or certificates issued by JAA Member States
(1) Where a person, an organisation or a service has been licensed, issued with a rating, authorisation, approval or certificate by the Authority of a JAA Member State in accordance with the requirements of JAR–FCL and associated procedures, such licences, ratings, authorisations, approvals or certificates shall be accepted without formality by other JAA Member States.
JAR–FCL 1.065
(d) For administrative convenience, e.g. revalidation, the licence holder may subsequently transfer a licence issued by the State of licence issue to another JAA Member State, provided that employment or normal residency is established in that State (see JAR–FCL 1.070). That State would thereafter become the State of licence issue and would assume the responsibility for licence issue referred to in (a) above
JAR–FCL 1.070 Normal residency
Normal residency means the place where a person usually lives for at least 185 days in each calendar year because of personal and occupational ties or, in the case of a person with no occupational ties, because of personal ties which show close links between that person and the place where she or he is living.
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Homeguard & Whopity,
Wow, what can I say guys..... thanks for the references!!!
...I am fully aware this isnt particularly going to help me this weekend though....
But seeing as my next planned trip to the UK is for December, (but that might well change now!) I think it is definitely worth my looking into changing from UK admin to French admin. You know, I actually went to the Bordeaux DGAC office 5 years ago when I started flying over here to ask if I needed to change anything with my licence, and did nothing at that time as it seemed I was able to do everything here in France and send all paperwork to the UK without problem, and indeed have been doing so up until now!!
I will endevour to contact the DGAC on monday (the central office in Paris this time??) and ask quoting the references you guys have provided. It cannot hurt to enquire again.
Thanks again, Regards, SD..
Wow, what can I say guys..... thanks for the references!!!
...I am fully aware this isnt particularly going to help me this weekend though....
But seeing as my next planned trip to the UK is for December, (but that might well change now!) I think it is definitely worth my looking into changing from UK admin to French admin. You know, I actually went to the Bordeaux DGAC office 5 years ago when I started flying over here to ask if I needed to change anything with my licence, and did nothing at that time as it seemed I was able to do everything here in France and send all paperwork to the UK without problem, and indeed have been doing so up until now!!
I will endevour to contact the DGAC on monday (the central office in Paris this time??) and ask quoting the references you guys have provided. It cannot hurt to enquire again.
Thanks again, Regards, SD..