Near-miss in the UK, US jet crews criticised
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Near-miss in the UK, US jet crews criticised
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Wouldn't want to be the Eagle jocks (or would I..... 
) or their CAG right now 
It's a very good thing that our BA man in the RJ was spot on his aA. - ~
~ -
) or their CAG right now It's a very good thing that our BA man in the RJ was spot on his aA. - ~
~ -
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Can somebody tell me what I am missing here......
Get airborne from Lakenheath (Suffolk), destination is North East (Otterburn) near miss over Bedfordshire and a divert (due to low fuel) to where (?) RAF Valley.....shirley shome mishtake! Is there nowhere closer for a divert?
Get airborne from Lakenheath (Suffolk), destination is North East (Otterburn) near miss over Bedfordshire and a divert (due to low fuel) to where (?) RAF Valley.....shirley shome mishtake! Is there nowhere closer for a divert?
qte the crews' inability to fly either as a coherent formation or as two independent aircraft during the diversion unqte
The sooner they make these things pilotless (or start teaching the crews skills other than the "shoot 'em up" kind) the better
The sooner they make these things pilotless (or start teaching the crews skills other than the "shoot 'em up" kind) the better
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RevMan2
I think your post is just off the target.
No doubt, the fighter jocks did a line of mistakes. But you can not blame all the military fighter training. (you were asking for improving skills, other than "shoot em up")
There are always better and less good pilots doing mistakes.
Did you go personally go trough military pilot training and airline training?
I did! And I tell you, mistakes are happening, wether military or civil!
Of course they have to be investigated to avoid similar situations!
I think your post is just off the target.
No doubt, the fighter jocks did a line of mistakes. But you can not blame all the military fighter training. (you were asking for improving skills, other than "shoot em up")
There are always better and less good pilots doing mistakes.
Did you go personally go trough military pilot training and airline training?
I did! And I tell you, mistakes are happening, wether military or civil!
Of course they have to be investigated to avoid similar situations!
' The report was also critical of air traffic control at Lakenheath in Suffolk for a communication failure which "contributed to the subsequent radar identification problems". '
Always remember calling up Lakenheath Radar a few years ago for a service when heading VFR up to Norwich. The US controller just could not handle the fact that I was showing an 800 foot difference on his (doubtless multi-million dollar) display compared to my declared altitude.
We later wondered how he would have coped with incoming Soviet bombers; would he have expected them to call up and ask for a QNH ?
Always remember calling up Lakenheath Radar a few years ago for a service when heading VFR up to Norwich. The US controller just could not handle the fact that I was showing an 800 foot difference on his (doubtless multi-million dollar) display compared to my declared altitude.
We later wondered how he would have coped with incoming Soviet bombers; would he have expected them to call up and ask for a QNH ?
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Quite apart from any contravention of rules for flight in controlled airspace, these are fighter aircraft and a properly trained crew should be aware at all times of the proximity of other aircraft - or do they rely solely on AWACs nowadays?
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I suppose it's too much to hope that they'll have functioning ADS-B transmitters in the future on routine non-sensitive missions!Give us a chance to miss 'em...rhetorical question, think I know the answer, back to my beer
Give us a chance to miss 'em...rhetorical question, think I know the answer, back to my beer
Immelmann
"Did you go personally go trough military pilot training and airline training"
Yes, but is it relevant?
Is it too much to expect high levels of situational awareness and emergency situation management? It's bad enough if one of them starts acting like girl's blouse, but BOTH of them?
About as much use as a chocolate teapot. Or an ashtray on a motorbike. Take your pick.
"Did you go personally go trough military pilot training and airline training"
Yes, but is it relevant?
Is it too much to expect high levels of situational awareness and emergency situation management? It's bad enough if one of them starts acting like girl's blouse, but BOTH of them?
About as much use as a chocolate teapot. Or an ashtray on a motorbike. Take your pick.
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Originally Posted by RevMan2
The sooner they make these things pilotless (or start teaching the crews skills other than the "shoot 'em up" kind) the better
Further, you surely know, that you have sometimes a young chicken at your wing, which relies on the lead in difficult situations!
Well, this happening will have dicziplinary consequences for the pilots, at least for the leader.
Well, what a fascinating thread. Some interesting views, but I'm not sure what RevMan2's problem is. I don't know the full details of the incident, but to simply slag off the military is a bit below the belt. Clearly the F15 drivers made an error or 2, but it also appears that the controllers let them down.
I could quote an inordinate number of civil airline blunders caused by inept decision making and or poor piloting ability, (certainly not maintaining '...high levels of situational awareness...' ). If ever there was a case for pilotless aircraft it has to be for the airliners first!
H Peacock
I could quote an inordinate number of civil airline blunders caused by inept decision making and or poor piloting ability, (certainly not maintaining '...high levels of situational awareness...' ). If ever there was a case for pilotless aircraft it has to be for the airliners first!
H Peacock
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Not defending the Eagles per se, but reading betwixt the lines a bit, it appears to me they got themselves a bit low on fuel & executed min/emer fuel procedures without declaring a pan (not something in the US vernacular, BTW & paperwork when you must do similar, so most pilots avoid at all costs). Then they relied far too heavily on the "big sky" theory & did what they felt they needed & informed ATC after the fact...not uncommon, really. In this case, however, the big sky got a little small for an unnerving moment.
But surely the BA mate had ACAS, so no worries
...would definitely like to hear the Eagles' side of it before I passed any judgement.
But surely the BA mate had ACAS, so no worries
...would definitely like to hear the Eagles' side of it before I passed any judgement.
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But surely the BA mate had ACAS, so no worries
Radar data
Civilian air traffic control radar recordings were obtained covering the time of the incident. They show that at 1131 hrs the formation began squawking the emergency Mode A code 7700 with a concurrent Mode C altitude of 16,800 ft. Twenty five seconds later both the Mode A and C squawks disappeared, the last Mode C altitude recorded being 18,500 ft. The Mode A emergency squawk 7700 then reappeared 1 minute and 21 seconds later concurrent with a Mode C altitude of 22,400 ft.
The recordings showed a minimum lateral separation between Tahoe 52 and the Embraer 145 of 0.53 nm and a minimum lateral separation between Tahoe 51 and the Embraer 145 of 1.18 nm. No Mode C altitude information is displayed for either of the military aircraft during this period and it has not been possible to verify the minimum vertical separation.
Civilian air traffic control radar recordings were obtained covering the time of the incident. They show that at 1131 hrs the formation began squawking the emergency Mode A code 7700 with a concurrent Mode C altitude of 16,800 ft. Twenty five seconds later both the Mode A and C squawks disappeared, the last Mode C altitude recorded being 18,500 ft. The Mode A emergency squawk 7700 then reappeared 1 minute and 21 seconds later concurrent with a Mode C altitude of 22,400 ft.
The recordings showed a minimum lateral separation between Tahoe 52 and the Embraer 145 of 0.53 nm and a minimum lateral separation between Tahoe 51 and the Embraer 145 of 1.18 nm. No Mode C altitude information is displayed for either of the military aircraft during this period and it has not been possible to verify the minimum vertical separation.
http://tinyurl.com/ay2us
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Hey Jollyboy, After reading these threads so far... I get the same thing going through my head....just like yours.
Nearest divert.... RAF Valley......???
I know the airspace around Lakenheath quite well and im sure that my first
divert would not be Valley.
For USAF/RAF I might be wrong?
Nearest divert.... RAF Valley......???
I know the airspace around Lakenheath quite well and im sure that my first
divert would not be Valley.
For USAF/RAF I might be wrong?
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The recordings showed a minimum lateral separation between Tahoe 52 and the Embraer 145 of 0.53 nm and a minimum lateral separation between Tahoe 51 and the Embraer 145 of 1.18 nm.
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But it only works if the 'intruder' is giving useful transponder information. In this incident there were periods where the F15's transponders were either not selected or not transmitting Mode C data.
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.. they didn't bust the 1000' act bubble, so now worries.
The worrying thing from the report as an Air Tragic Controller (assuming the transcripts are correct) was the total lack of readbacks from the F15 pilots to any clearance given, coupled with the ATC agencies not taking steps to get a positive readback. How do you know the pilot has the correct information if the readback is 'Roger' ??
For example (from the report)
''Climb and maintain FL230'' - 'Wilco'
''Maintain FL150, higher with London'' - 'Roger'
''Climb FL310'' - 'Roger Ma'am'
It was no wonder that the F15s didn't go to the levels expected or comply with the co-ordinations agreed by ATC. There was no check made that they understood and would comply.
Please, please, continue to make these guys fly OAT with Mil Radar ... not sure us civvy controllers could handle them without bursting a blood vessel
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I would hazard a guess that, the main problem here - is lack of airspace education given to the US Crews that arrive in the UK.
We have some very crowded and complicated airspace for them to navigate and they obviously need some help here!
It would appear that reading between the lines, that they used to get a thorough briefing from the RAF in years gone by to indicate the differences in UK airspace and how the RIS / RAS effect their flights compared to that they were used to in the USA.
Bring that briefing and education back guys.. It's got to be worthwhile and will help them out!
However, with regard to the latest airmiss; it would appear that there were many links in the chain that lead to a major cock-up.. Lakenheath ATC caused a further problem with the lie about no delay and did not pass full details of squawk and Flt Level restriction from Lon Mil.
When the Flight lead decided to divert he should have positively taken back the Flight lead role and have his wingman understand that and act as a flight and not two singletons / loose flight.
All this time, what were the Wso rear seater crew doing to help? It appears they were just along for the ride! It doesn't appear that they were helping much. Do they not have a role in helping monitor the flight and assist the pilot with Nav etc? Obviously they could be head down and use the F-15Es kit to help the situation.
Finally, was RAF Valley really the nearest suitable diversion airfield for these two aircraft?
Perhaps, with the rapid closure of RAF bases around the country; suitable diversion airfields are becoming very few and far between!
We have some very crowded and complicated airspace for them to navigate and they obviously need some help here!
It would appear that reading between the lines, that they used to get a thorough briefing from the RAF in years gone by to indicate the differences in UK airspace and how the RIS / RAS effect their flights compared to that they were used to in the USA.
Bring that briefing and education back guys.. It's got to be worthwhile and will help them out!
However, with regard to the latest airmiss; it would appear that there were many links in the chain that lead to a major cock-up.. Lakenheath ATC caused a further problem with the lie about no delay and did not pass full details of squawk and Flt Level restriction from Lon Mil.
When the Flight lead decided to divert he should have positively taken back the Flight lead role and have his wingman understand that and act as a flight and not two singletons / loose flight.
All this time, what were the Wso rear seater crew doing to help? It appears they were just along for the ride! It doesn't appear that they were helping much. Do they not have a role in helping monitor the flight and assist the pilot with Nav etc? Obviously they could be head down and use the F-15Es kit to help the situation.
Finally, was RAF Valley really the nearest suitable diversion airfield for these two aircraft?
Perhaps, with the rapid closure of RAF bases around the country; suitable diversion airfields are becoming very few and far between!
Last edited by Out Of Trim; 10th Feb 2006 at 00:14.