LDG Lights ON = Cleared for T/O
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LDG Lights ON = Cleared for T/O
LDG Lights ON = Cleared for T/O
Shouldn't it be universal that once being cleared for Take Off that, especially in Commercial Jet Aircraft,landing lights are selected ON?
This would aid taxiing A/C (especially those on another frequency) and ATC in knowing visually if an A/C is on the roll (or about to).
If only clear to line up then only Taxi / Nose T/O Lights should be ON.
Obviously this is only for Aircraft that have two or more selectable switch positions.
---- What are your thoughts? ----
Shouldn't it be universal that once being cleared for Take Off that, especially in Commercial Jet Aircraft,landing lights are selected ON?
This would aid taxiing A/C (especially those on another frequency) and ATC in knowing visually if an A/C is on the roll (or about to).
If only clear to line up then only Taxi / Nose T/O Lights should be ON.
Obviously this is only for Aircraft that have two or more selectable switch positions.
---- What are your thoughts? ----
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Shouldn't it be universal that some lights are on when cleared for take-off, but some others, which may be indistiguishable from a distance, on for line-up? Only of course on aircraft with certain light selections available to them?
Great idea.
Any other pointless and complicated ideas to help you forget something important at a crucial stage of flight?
Great idea.
Any other pointless and complicated ideas to help you forget something important at a crucial stage of flight?
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Pub User, I don't know what type you currently fly, but you should be aware that Taxy and Turnoff lights are very far from indistinguishable from Landing Lights.
If you disagree with the suggestion made by Capt Groper (with which I am in agreement) you are free to express such disagreement. What you are not entitled to do in the process is to be disagreeable.
As this is a first offence I will take no further action for now.
If you disagree with the suggestion made by Capt Groper (with which I am in agreement) you are free to express such disagreement. What you are not entitled to do in the process is to be disagreeable.
As this is a first offence I will take no further action for now.
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I also agree, 'ldg lts on' should be selected only when cleared for take off - sadly only one set of commercial SOP's I have ever flown to had this in them! One word of caution, there is risk in linking any additional action to the take off clearance as in moments of mental fog some may (wrongly) use the switch position to confirm an idea about the receipt of the clearance...potentially serious.
Incidentally, some I have flown to also suggested ldg lts on only after receipt of landing clearance on approach, try that at 50 feet coming into LHR! Problems with this also include aircraft visibility, e.g. in the hold, when amongst VFR traffic under RAS/RIS. So for me, on when cleared TO and on again when below 100/approasching the hold.
PS I know mod bods can't be everywhere but to be fair there are far more obnoxious individuals around than the admittedly rude pub user who seem to go unchecked!
Incidentally, some I have flown to also suggested ldg lts on only after receipt of landing clearance on approach, try that at 50 feet coming into LHR! Problems with this also include aircraft visibility, e.g. in the hold, when amongst VFR traffic under RAS/RIS. So for me, on when cleared TO and on again when below 100/approasching the hold.
PS I know mod bods can't be everywhere but to be fair there are far more obnoxious individuals around than the admittedly rude pub user who seem to go unchecked!
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Daysleeper, I hear your point about max visibility - but I disagree. Apart from anything else, most landing lights have a very limited filament life, and are mega-expensive. Without airflow over the covers, they tend to burn out very quickly.
The sequence that I find most helpful is as follows:-
On the stand - nav lights on.
Clear start - anti-colls on.
Clear taxy - taxy & turnoffs on.
When clear line up AND entering the runway - strobes on.
Clear takeoff - landing lights on.
Leave landing lights on until passing 10,000 in the climb, and back on passing 10,000 in the descent. They also stay on until evacuating the runway. It's bad practice to have them on any more than that on the ground - apart from the filament life, you can easily destroy other people's night vision.
The sequence that I find most helpful is as follows:-
On the stand - nav lights on.
Clear start - anti-colls on.
Clear taxy - taxy & turnoffs on.
When clear line up AND entering the runway - strobes on.
Clear takeoff - landing lights on.
Leave landing lights on until passing 10,000 in the climb, and back on passing 10,000 in the descent. They also stay on until evacuating the runway. It's bad practice to have them on any more than that on the ground - apart from the filament life, you can easily destroy other people's night vision.
Workarounds often expose more hazards than they cure.
This thread is a classic example of a workaround solution to a particular problem – the need for greater awareness of aircraft in the vicinity.
By all means use landing lights, but don’t expect to have any standard; lights are designed for specific purposes and will be / should be used for their primary role. As and when the crew requires more illumination they will / should use landing lights. There are few if any safeguards against a misinterpreted signal from the use of lights when a pilot needs to use them in a ‘non standard’ manner. Workarounds often expose more hazards than they cure.
With a need for greater awareness other devices should be considered either individually or collectively; start with ACAS?
By all means use landing lights, but don’t expect to have any standard; lights are designed for specific purposes and will be / should be used for their primary role. As and when the crew requires more illumination they will / should use landing lights. There are few if any safeguards against a misinterpreted signal from the use of lights when a pilot needs to use them in a ‘non standard’ manner. Workarounds often expose more hazards than they cure.
With a need for greater awareness other devices should be considered either individually or collectively; start with ACAS?
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Don't forget that the reason for the lights is so that you can be easily seen (and if necessary avoided).
As a controller I've seen various types of strobes, landing lights, etc. and I vote for the Brighter the Lights and Strobes, the easier it is for me to see you, to point you out to other traffic, and to ensure that I don't forget about you.
Mike
As a controller I've seen various types of strobes, landing lights, etc. and I vote for the Brighter the Lights and Strobes, the easier it is for me to see you, to point you out to other traffic, and to ensure that I don't forget about you.
Mike
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Agreed, NATCA - but it won't make it easier for you to see a little puddlejumper at the holding point if he's using standard lighting (anticolls and navs) whilst waiting for instruction to line up when everyone else around him has those plus strobes and landing lights on when they're not needed.
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well, this is just me and my C172 or Grob talking...
We of course have to positions for the landing light... steady on and pulse. When cleared for tak-off on the ground, the landing light comes steady on as well as strobes (except at night and thr strobes will come on immediately after t/o... too distracting otherwise) and then about when departing the vicinity the pulse light will come on.... this is day or night.... the back to steady on when cleared to land...
The steady on landing light switched at clearance for t/o or landing is a good system also for myself so if I have any doubt as to whether I was cleared or not, I can just look down at the switch. and I'm very consistant with turning it on every time I'm cleared for t/o or landing.
We of course have to positions for the landing light... steady on and pulse. When cleared for tak-off on the ground, the landing light comes steady on as well as strobes (except at night and thr strobes will come on immediately after t/o... too distracting otherwise) and then about when departing the vicinity the pulse light will come on.... this is day or night.... the back to steady on when cleared to land...
The steady on landing light switched at clearance for t/o or landing is a good system also for myself so if I have any doubt as to whether I was cleared or not, I can just look down at the switch. and I'm very consistant with turning it on every time I'm cleared for t/o or landing.
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Captain Stable , in general i agree with your point, however I used to fly a 4 engined 55,000kg aircraft that had no strobes, or turn off lights, so from above at night there was only one small red rotating beacon. easily missed amongst runway lights.
The Landing lights not only provide direct illumination but also backlights the aircraft against the runway from above.
As for the cost of the bulbs, well they are a heck of a lot cheaper than having someone land on top of you.
There is a bit of a similar debate running in my company over LOGO lights at the moment, SOP is to turn them off passing 10,000 (along with landing lights) lot of people think they should be left on, increases visibility hugely.
The Landing lights not only provide direct illumination but also backlights the aircraft against the runway from above.
As for the cost of the bulbs, well they are a heck of a lot cheaper than having someone land on top of you.
There is a bit of a similar debate running in my company over LOGO lights at the moment, SOP is to turn them off passing 10,000 (along with landing lights) lot of people think they should be left on, increases visibility hugely.
Last edited by Daysleeper; 1st Feb 2004 at 19:40.
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Captain,
I agree that the strobes and landing lights have no business being on while taxiing or holding short because of the danger of blinding or distracting another pilot, but as soon as you enter the runway, every light that you can turn on should be on (See And Be Seen).
Regretfully there are still many GA and older AT aircraft that only have a landing light and small red rotating beacons so they are harder to see.
Mike
I agree that the strobes and landing lights have no business being on while taxiing or holding short because of the danger of blinding or distracting another pilot, but as soon as you enter the runway, every light that you can turn on should be on (See And Be Seen).
Regretfully there are still many GA and older AT aircraft that only have a landing light and small red rotating beacons so they are harder to see.
Mike
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True story: An inbound aircraft passing a VOR about 40 NM out and see an outbound one still with landing lights on. He is on a different freq. but ask the controller to pass the message. The controller says:
"XXX, you still have your landing lights on"
"Thank you...say, what kind of radar do you guys have?"
"XXX, you still have your landing lights on"
"Thank you...say, what kind of radar do you guys have?"
Psychophysiological entity
Luxury!! We were told not to use the landing lights at all...unless it was a very dark night. The huge bulbs burnt out readily, and an old boy had to be cajoled out of retirement to wind a new filament and re vacate the bulb. Cost, 90 pounds sterling. About the value of the port engine and part of the wing.
HP7 c 1978
Hand on heart, this is true.
HP7 c 1978
Hand on heart, this is true.
You all have made some very good points. Do many pilots, in whatever countries, turn on either nacelle lights or the brighter ground floods when cleared to taxi across a runway, or even when "cleared into position and hold"? A number of pilots over here also leave their taxi lights off a good bit of the time-even when the airplane is going quite a distance-at night (!), out of courtesy. But this makes them much harder to see when we are off to the side.
To repeat others' comments, it never hurts for the other traffic to have a much easier chance to see your plane, day or night. If a few seconds of this cause a light bulb or two on the side of the plane to burn out, then the mechanics (engineers) can just replace them, or MEL.
To repeat others' comments, it never hurts for the other traffic to have a much easier chance to see your plane, day or night. If a few seconds of this cause a light bulb or two on the side of the plane to burn out, then the mechanics (engineers) can just replace them, or MEL.
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I'm with FWA NATCA,
when on the active runway turn on as much as you can, cleared for take off or not.
Other people must see if the runway is busy or clear.
Light bulbs life is negligible in comparison to a safety issue like this one.
Messing up with traffic on the active runway is what scares me most.
when on the active runway turn on as much as you can, cleared for take off or not.
Other people must see if the runway is busy or clear.
Light bulbs life is negligible in comparison to a safety issue like this one.
Messing up with traffic on the active runway is what scares me most.
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most landing lights have a very limited filament life, and are mega-expensive
Nonsense. The PAR36 used in light singles costs no more that $10 and the PAR64's used in the 744 less than $50. The lamps themselves are not expensive, but only the engineering time airlines charge themselves to get a screwdriver out to replace it.
Nonsense. The PAR36 used in light singles costs no more that $10 and the PAR64's used in the 744 less than $50. The lamps themselves are not expensive, but only the engineering time airlines charge themselves to get a screwdriver out to replace it.
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To support the policy of having every light (strobes, landing lights, taxi lights, etc.) ON, is the accident that occured at LAX about 8 years ago. Had the Merlin been more visible from the tower, or to the aircraft on final this accident would probably never had occured.
Mike
NATCA FWA
Mike
NATCA FWA