sneetch

Hi all!
I am currently about half way through my PPL(H) training and overall having a great time. But one thing has been bothering me a little. My concern is the quality of my pre-flight checks (external).
Now.... I have no basis for comparison here so this may be the way everyone learns but to be honest I don't see how any instructor could feel safe after letting me do such a half assed job.
The written reference I've been given is the POH, which is fine ....trouble is I don't know what half of the stuff on the list is let alone how to spot if there might be something wrong with it!
I had a run through of the checks with an instructor a total of about 4 times (all at the beginning), and from there on in I was expected to do it myself. Neither myself or any of my fellow students use actual lists while pre-flighting nor have we been told to. I know I'm missing things and I know that there is a lot of stuff that I just wouldn't have a clue if it was ok or not.

Everything that I've read seems to suggest that if you don't use a list, it is just a matter of time before you miss something.
Is this the way all schools teach pre-flights?
I have mentioned this to various instructors and other students but nobody seems to be concerned.
What do you think? Am I being paranoid? Your own experiences and advice would be appreciated.

TeeS

Sneetch - my advice is to find an engineer with lots of experience on the type and ask him to show you what he looks for and where the particular type has problems.

Flying Lawyer

"Is this the way all schools teach pre-flights?"
I obviously can't comment on all schools but, based purely upon my own experience (fixed-wing and helicopters), what Sneetch describes is what the vast majority do.
"I have mentioned this to various instructors and other students but nobody seems to be concerned."
They are wrong; you are right to be concerned.
"Am I being paranoid?"
No, not in my view.

There are some exeptions (and I've been fortunate to find some over the years) but, generally, far too little importance is attached to teaching a proper pre-flight check.
Too many instructors tend to cover this aspect in the early lessons and then simply send the student out with a Check List saying 'Do the pre-flight checks and strap in. I'll join you in a minute." Some instructors do their own pre-flight (or walk-round) when they arrive; some don't. Later, when the student knows the start procedure, it becomes 'I'll come out when you've started.'
The result is that there is no means of ensuring that the student has actually learned how to do a proper pre-flight or, as Sneetch frankly admits, even understands what he's looking at or should be looking for.

I suppose it might be argued that the student is allowed to build confidence by doing the checks on his own, but I think in most cases that's just an excuse for the instructor to use the time to take a break.
The more conscientious instructors watch students doing checks, and every few lessons make them call out what they're doing, what they're looking for and why - but, in my experience of fixed-wing and helicopter training, they're the exception.

Tees' suggestion is a good one. But you should also speak to your instructor and say what you've said here. There's no need to be embarrassed. Admit that you're concerned about this aspect. Ask the instructor to do your checks with you and to test you from time to time. If he's any good, he won't mind and will adapt to your wishes. If he doesn't, find youself a better instructor or a better school - it may literally save your life one day.

Hone22

Half way through a PPL and still unsure of some aspects of the pre-flight. (she's a real steep learning curve initially).

Yeah, pretty normal that the first 2 or so done by the instructor telling you whats what.

Next 2-4 done by yourself with the instructor watching over the shoulder to correct/embellish things.

Then quite often you're supposed to know everything down pat!


The reality is that there's so much info at the start (what with trying to fly the thing plus everything else ) that you forget a lot of the things that were crammed in the begining & end up doing the same things the wrong/incomplete way without some correction.

Every now & then your instructor should demo a pre-flight. At times while you're doing a pre-flight the instructor should point at a thing & go in depth on that 1 thing (eg: whats special about the tail rotor flapping hinge? slowly working over the whole machine). As with the engineer bit below, your instructor should have a good idea and point out to you the bits you really keep an eye on and get nervous about ( weakpoints etc....).

If possible grab a different instructor and asks how he does a pre-flight (quite amazing what a different point of veiw reveals).

Yes!! as per Tees grab an engineer and find out all the bits they love to look at ( more relevant, what bits should you really keep a good eye on ).

Yes be paranoid, don't let someone else's laziness be your lack of knowledge be the death of you.

Read everything, ask questions, get demo's, cross check, more questions then do it properly.

Low N aahhR

Sneech

Pilots - as a rule - ain't engineers. Look for things that don't look right - or the same as they normally do. Over time you will develope the ability to tell when all does not look well. You may not know why something doesn't feel right but don't ignore the feeling... Ask. You might feel daft if you're wrong, but if you don't ask...

As a commercial pilot who operates without full time engineering buckup i rely on seeing the same thing time and time again and reacting if i see soemthing that is different. It's not the same as having an engineer there to check the machine but in the real world it is often what we have to accept.

If you're not sure - Pour another coffee and wait for the man to arrive!

Flysafe.

Heliport

LowNR
The whole point of Sneech's valuable post is that at his stage, and not having been taught properly, he's not able to tell when "things don't look right" and isn't able to tell whether they look "as they normally do."

the coyote

Sneetch,

Good on you for having one of the most important aspects of flying right from the start - a willingness to learn more and understand the aircraft. Everyone is the same with something new but over time you'll develop your knowledge and be a lot more confident. As previously stated, ask as many questions as you need to, and make sure you understand something, not just memorize it.

Until your licenced and endorsed on the aircraft, you shouldn't be expected to preflight it alone so the instructor can have a coffee. When I was an instructor there was no way I would take one flying without making sure it was OK myself first! There's a legal responsibility there too. The instructors and engineers if they are worth their salt should always be able to answer your questions, even if they don't have the time immediately and have to get back to you on it.

If your not sure of everyting, or if your pushed for time, at least check the most important things for safety - fuel for water (and quantity!), oil levels, flight controls and structural attachments. And never overlook the basics, its one thing to check the play in a bearing but is the engine cowl secure, rotors untied etc?

Happy learning!

Dynamic Component

Sneetch,

As mentioned before,get a engineer out there next to the aircraft, but go through the checklist with him/her and ask what the problem could be with the specific part.

This way you would know what it is and what to look for.
Good luck and safe flying

sling load

Sneetch,

the preflight is as important to learning as are autorotations, you should always do thorough pre flights, this will carry over to larger machines which have lots of cowls and latches and more sophisticated tail rotors, main rotors etc, get an engineer, the advice of your instructors is disappointing.

Get to know the machine well on the outside, its just as important as any other part of training

Vfrpilotpb

Good morning Sneetch,

Congrats you have taken the first step in asking a question that most folk would be too embarassed to admit to, as all others have said it helps if you know what you are looking at, but its is also very sad that the intructor who you have is doing nothing to initially check your checks, very sadly it points to the greater possibility that he may not care.
To fly any sort aircraft does however require knowledge of what, does what, and you really must find out everything about the entire craft you are trying to fly, if your insructor/school is lacking in this field, then take your money and find some one who will do things the right way.

Remember, when you enter the realms of the birds, it aint God who gets you back on terra firma.

advancing_blade

Sneetch and all

When I started flying, I was able to use a CD-rom driven pre flight program for the R22 which was very good. I have found that some pilots just rely on the engineering staff to do a daily inspection. As pilot in command, the buck stops with you. As others have posted, good for you for asking the question.

I thought you may be interested in this article which is reproduced with kind permission from Aviation Safety Vortex which is part of Transport Canada.

http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/sy.../1-02/V001.htm

Playing the Odds—The Art of the Pre-flight Inspection

With the morning coffee and pre-flight briefing out of the way, the instructor asked the 50-hr student to prepare his Bell 47 for the day’s first flight. After completing the daily inspection and refuelling, the student summoned the instructor, who told him to go ahead and get the aircraft started and warmed up—he’d be along in a moment.

Shortly after the student had the ship running, the instructor headed across the tarmac and climbed in. They passed the next 15 minutes reviewing the details of the lesson and doing pre-flight checks, then departed the ramp into the clear sky. Two minutes into the flight, at approximately 700 ft AGL, the aircraft suddenly started a spin to the right, then pitched down and began a spiralling descent. Witnesses said that it appeared the pilot was unable to recover and control was lost. The 47 hit the ground in a steep nose-down attitude, and both occupants were fatally injured.

The afternoon before, a 100-hr inspection had been carried out on the ship by two of the company’s maintenance personnel, a veteran aircraft maintenance engineer (AME) and a relatively experienced apprentice. The 100-hr inspection includes, among other things, the flushing and replenishing of the tail rotor gearbox oil. While the AME conducted other portions of the inspection, he assigned the oil change to the apprentice, who set out draining the gearbox and examining the oil for metal contamination. When all tasks on the 100-hr inspection check sheet had been initialled, the lead AME signed the inspection in the aircraft journey logbook. The check sheet item that called for draining and filling the tail rotor gearbox oil had been initialled by the apprentice as being complete.

The accident investigation revealed no evidence of oil in the tail rotor gearbox, and it was determined that it had overheated from lack of lubrication. The subsequent failure of the gears had caused the loss of tail rotor thrust and yaw control. The drain plug was still lock wired in place.

As with many accidents, this one wasn’t caused by any one particular person or action, but a chain of unlikely events culminating in tragedy.

The failure to refill the gearbox.

The apprentice initialled the check sheet before the entire task was completed.

The AME did not verify the work of the apprentice.

A student pilot didn’t check, or incorrectly read, the sight glass.

The instructor, who had been notified of the previous day’s maintenance action, elected to allow the student to perform the pre-flight, then joined him in the aircraft after it was running. Was it the school’s policy to allow students to do the daily inspections by themselves following maintenance? What is your school’s policy?

Devil 49

Use a checklist.

Ask questions. Ask everybody. Mechanical staff, or engineers, or what ever you call them, make their daily bread inspecting and are a bonanza of knowledge if you can get them to share. Read tech publications, if you have time. There's a gozzillion looseleaf manuals on hand in the maintainence office. Mostly way too much deatail for a pilot's pointy head, but some are quite informative (and have pictures).

Use a checklist.

Use a checklist. I'm guesssing the one supplied isn't adequate, so take advantage of the computer age and word process your own. Update it as often as you can. Suggestion-the small heavy paper lose leaf binders, or what ever you call'em, with the flexible tabs will hold and protect a dozen or so pages and drop right into your chart bag...

Use a checklist.

I won't fly anything that I haven't preflighted, unless somebody I trust has done so. Perhaps that's why your instructor hasn't put more effort in?

Use a checklist.

Finally, I won't fly with anybody who doesn't at least walk around the bird before strapping in.

StrateandLevel

Here is part of a hand out issued by a Flying Instructor Examiner who was formerly Head of Enforcement UK.
--------------------------------

The Check A

I have found that the following questions are not answered well by flying instructors whether assistant or full or for initial issue or renewal.

Q1. What documents have to be complied with for the Certificate of Airworthiness to be valid?

The answer, you will know is;

i) the Flight Manual / Pilots Operating Handbook

ii) the Maintenance Schedule, which for light aircraft is usually the Light Aircraft Maintenance Schedule (LAMS), (CAP411).

The next question.

Q2 What constitutes the Check A on the aircraft and where can I find the details?

Most candidates do not connect Q2 with Q1 and say that details can be found in the aircraft's cheek list, They do, however, know that a cheek A is required before flight each day. Where shown a copy of the LAMS most candidates express surprise and are unaware of the document. When shown the Cheek A, as required by LAMS, most are seeing the list of items required for the first time. So we have Instructors and other qualified pilots carrying out legally required maintenance and not knowing what is required from them,

There is no requirement for the Check A to be signed for, just that it 'must be completed by a person to whom the owner or operator has entrusted the cheek, and to the satisfaction of the Pilot'. However most flying clubs do have a requirement for the Check A to be signed for in the tech. Log

Attached at Annex is a copy of those parts of the Check A that are applicable to a club aircraft. It all seems common sense and, in most cases, is what a prudent experienced pilot would normally check before the first flight of the day However if you read through the details of the Check A you will undoubtedly find items which are not always correct on aircraft you fly.

How important is all this? If a pilot carries out a check A, which is not completed, then the CofA is not valid, and there is the risk of prosecution or civil action in the event of an incident or accident.

-------------------------------------------------------------

So check your maintenance schedule!

Whirlybird

sneetch,

I entirely sympathise. Been there. I was a new R22 pilot with an instructor who was being somewhat patronising because I was female, but I didn't realise that at the time. Anyway, after a few weeks I asked to go over the checks again, but came away little the wiser. Several months/flying hours and another instructor later, I asked again, but still wasn't sure about much of it. The problem was, I really didn't have much knowledge of how the helicopter worked, or even how a piston engine worked, or things a lot of people seemed to think were really basic, and even though I told them, no-one seemed ready or able to start explaining absolutely from scratch.

Finally when it came to the CPL course I decided enough was enough, and I needed to know this stuff. I asked yet another instructor, who went over it in detail. I also bought a CD Rom, made by Burman Aviation (Patriot now) for their own students, but anyone can buy it. They're based at Cranfield, Gloucester, and I think a couple of other places; someone here will know. Get that CD Rom! It goes over the whole R22, and all the checks, in detail, with photos. I spent a whole wet half-day going over everything, in the hangar with an R22 and a printed out checklist with photos, until I knew what everything was, and how things should be, and what to look for. I should have done it months earlier. But I shouldn't have had to work so hard to be able to.

One thing I'm sure of, if and when I'm an instructor I'll make sure this doesn't happen to my students!

A and C

As an instructor (fixed wing) I have to say that MOST of my fellow instructors do not cover the technical side very well at all.

A pre-flight check is quite an involved thing and cant be taught in one lesson , first I teach the basic things to look for and then each time I fly with the guy I build on this with a more detailed look at part of the aircraft.

I treat eny girl student pilot with suspision as they are likely to have had next to no technical instruction from there male instructor who,s mind would have undoubtedly been on other things.

All my students get at least two or three visits to the maintenance hangar to view the aircraft in bits , as picture is worth a thousand words and the engineers make the best tea on the airfield.

The pre-flight inspection is much more critical on a rotory wing so if you are in eny doubt what so ever talk to an engineer........buy him a beer in the bar one night and you will find it good value for money ,and it might just save your life.

Weight and Balance

Sneech;

Your original question was excellent. I’m not surprised at the quality of the responses, either. These Roterhead guys are great, I love all of you (in a brotherly kind of way, of course).

My own response just sums up the many other great posts.

1. Never EVER be afraid to ask a question. That’s how you learn. Ask your instructors – if you don’t like the answer ask another instructor, ask mechanics, ask groups like Pprune, and so on.

2. Always refer to the checklist for a preflight inspection. It’s your choice if you actually carry the list with you, or just read it over immediately before your walk around. The more complicated the flying machines in your life become, the more important this becomes. If anybody tells you they don’t need a checklist to cover everything on their 2 engine IFR helicopter, they’re lying, full of ****, or both.

3. Over time, by repeating many walk arounds, you will get a feel for what looks “normal”. When you see the un-normal, refer to my point 1.

SandBlaster-214

All good answers, in my opinion.

I would agree, most definately, use a checklist. When I gave new pilots initial Part 135 training on particular make/ models, they each received personal copies of the checklists so they could make whatever notes they needed next to any particular item.

I also had them spend time in the shop with the lead mechanic (or engineer) and the engine man. These folks were great at answering the "what if" questions that seem to pop up and they were always willing to give the FNG's "hands on" experience such as, how much "play" in a bearing is too much or what a void actually sounds like when it's tapped - stuff like that.

It was not all that uncommon to get a dude (sorry Whirly, never had any experience with dudettes... yet) with four or five hundred hours time in type that couldn't perform a complete pre-flight or would completely overlook important inspection items simply because they wern't taught from the beginning or were taught the "short-cut" methods.

One thing I'd like to add; don't take anything for granted. If you ask someone; "did you do this", or, "did you fill this", re-check to make sure they actually did do it. Remember, you, as the pilot, have and assume the final authority and responsibility for the operation of the aircraft.

Good luck - Have fun.

C Ya

GLSNightPilot

If anyone has any doubts about the need for a preflight, read the current Bell Rotorbreeze. I'm not sure how a pilot & mechanic (engineer) could take off with no mast nut (AKA the Jesus nut) or droop stops on a 206, but they did. They won't do it again, though.

I don't normally use a checklist for preflights, nor do my peers. We've been doing it for many years, & it eventually becomes second nature, though you have to learn what to look for on each aircraft. Some things I've learned to check through hard experience, some through the experience of others. If you have any doubts about checking everything, use a checklist, there's certainly no shame in it. Do whatever it takes to insure you're around to do another preflight tomorrow.

lills

Everyone has mentioned the Preflight inspection, but I can assure you that a post flight inspection is important and will save you embarrassment some where along the way.

I learnt the hard way, nothing worse when you were the last person to fly the machine, do a preflight before your next flight and find something wrong which could have been repaired earlier.

Along with everyone else, if doubt ask someone who knows, chances are the instructor only has a few more hours than you do.

vorticey

you'll soon learn that what ever you dont look at is what a problem will arise from.
what you want to look at is everthing, not OVER LOOK everything!
every bolt that you can find should be checked visualy for looseness and if its chaffing (a brown or grey powder coming out of it). all moving parts that can be moved, move them looking for smoothness, looseness and fowling. anymore than a tiny bit of play in somthing needs an expert opinion.
if your not happy with your preflight, dont go flying. ask the instructor to go through a section with you, (i remember the whole lot seemed too much to take in) and remember, your paying the money.