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As promulgated in Airservices Australia's internal mail last week:

"INTERNATIONAL OPPORTUNITY : ATNS SOUTH AFRICA

Air Traffic and Navigation Services Ltd (ATNS) the South African equivalent of Airservices Australia is interested in employing air traffic controllers on fixed term contracts 15-18 months. The requirement is currently for eight controllers consisting of 5 approach/departures controllers and 3 radar enroute controllers all based at Johannesburg Centre.

Terms and conditions of employment are still under discussion and will depend on the means of employment. Currently two options are being pursued, individual contracts with Airservices staff being released on leave without pay for the period, or alternatively Airservices contract to supply a number of staff on a contract between the two companies.

Expressions of interest are invited for this opportunity. It is acknowledged that any expression of interest is just that, not a binding commitment, and that a more formal application process will be necessary when terms and conditions are agreed. There will also be a requirement to assess on an individual basis who can or can’t be released.

Please provide by email to (deleted) your name, location, current ratings and contact details, or, if preferred, by phone on Ext. (deleted) if interested.

ATNS have requested that individuals not contact them direct before in principle agreement is reached."

Can any of our South African colleagues cast any light on this, especially regarding conditions, etc?

Cheers,

sep

ferris

Why do you think they are having so many problems with staff retention? Their staff are all over the world (or trying to get into oz). Their management is quite reminiscient of AsA; devoid of ethics and morals, full of pretentious ideas about being a 'business' etc etc. They pay in Rand, which is even worse than AUD. Chronic understaffing. Those ex-Joberg will tell you that it is safer here in a war zone, than there (unless you see car-jacking as a 'challenge').

I have no idea what is on offer, but will endeavor to find out. If you are just interested in doing a stint to see the country- that is another thing.

And if the offer is 'any good', I'm sure that will help industrial relations no-end!

Plazbot

One bloke from Airservices went there a couple of years ago. Got car jacked in the first few weeks, packed it in and came back. Airservies has also talked about supplying the labour on their behalf. If it goes anything like the instructors to the college who get nothing on top of standard pay to go away from home, I am sure that will die a very speedy death, like the death of a carjacker getting burnt in my flamethrowers installed under the car.....

The Crimson Fruitbat

Whilst I am not interested, out of curiosity what were they paying the Suid Afrikans before they escaped to the UAE?


On todays rates, $50,000USD = 400,610R

ferris

Here's what (little) I have been able to find out; discussions are still ongoing because neither side could organise a pissup in a pub. AsA were after some sort of exchange, ATNS just want a quick fix to their retention problem. They have done this in the past with some Swedes. 12 month contract, the controllers coming on LWOP and individual contracts which amounted to about average local pay (enough to live comfortably on, but not a money making exercise). The current situation has the ATNS controllers very suspicious and pissed off. They feel that the contract must be a good deal in order to attract higher-paid aussies, or else why would they come? Some conclusion jumping has led them to threaten not to OJTI these contractors. They also feel it is the company's way of not increasing salaries to retain, or attract back, locals. Interesting situation!

Fruitbat; The ATNS remuneration is not simple. It involves a salary plus a location allowance, which can be a significant part of the total. The salary is also dependant on what you do, and years of service. I'm led to believe that you would make less than 250K Rand. Whatever the figure, it allows a comfortable living by local standards, but doesn't cut it internationally.

divingduck

The guy in question actually witnessed the carjacking a couple of cars down from him at the lights apparently...

He is now stationed in sleepy hollow...Sharjah Tower.

Late Landing

Some 4 years ago I had a job offer and a contract from ATNS. The 'contract' was extremely poorly written and contained clauses refering to a position in Johannesburg as well as Durban. The salary was nothing like that which I had been offered at an interview, neither were the provisions of mediacl etc. I sought clarification but nothing was forthcoming; no replies to e-mails and telephone calls not returned. The only contact from ATNS after the contract was a phone call from the unit (Durban) enquiring what my start date preference was. Needless to say I didn't take up the offer.
The major factor to consider is the crime rate, life is very cheap. It doesn't how much you get paid if you aren't around to spend it!

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Sounds as though it may be as dodgy as I suspected.

I am sure that ASA, as a caring and sharing employer, would never dream of putting their troops at risk. Unless of course there was a performance bonus for the manager concerned.

I wonder how much this has to do with the ASA management dream of some sort of menage a trois with SA and NZ, and if so, who will have to sleep on the wet spot?

I must be getting cynical in my old age.

sep

Dumas

The contract package will be higher than the package the locals are currently getting. I would assume about R20 000 after tax and deductions. That's a fair amount in SA. One can lead a good life.

Probably would not want to move with my whole family. Singles and newly weds would do best I think.

Working conditions not too bad. 7 hour shifts, mostly. 6 days off in a 28 day cycle. Work is complex and utterly challenging! Edge of your seat stuff, this.

New centre manager starts in a weeks time. YAY!!!!! Can't wait to get rid of the current dictator.

Security. Oh please. I have family in europe that are a lot more concerned about living there than in Jo'burg. Just take the usual precautions ie lock your doors etc. Don't be stupid and remember where you are. No worries.

I would strongly suggest giving it a bash.

But that's just my opinion.

WE'RE WAITING!!!!

ZRH

Just as a matter of interest. I had 15 days off in March, and that was as per roster. Ok, so the company owed me a day or three, but that still leaves 12 days!! In tight months we get 10 days off.

How much does ATNS contribute toward a foreigner's pension fund? It should at least be something I can take with me when I leave again, and not just a few Rands which equate to "not much" in £ or $.

The Crimson Fruitbat

Nav Canada provides 11 days off every 28 days...and if you worked any of those 11 you'd be up for overtime (about R430 - R570 AN HOUR depending if you are on the bottom or top of the pay increments).

Flight International Jobs is advertising positions with them advertising the purchasing equivalent of R371,600 as a salary.

ferris

Fruitbat; it's typical isn't it? No, they couldn't just come and tell you the offer, they have to give purchasing equivalent ! What a gem! What is it with managers? They can't lie straight in bed.
In fact DUMAS post has a bit of a management smell about it. Joberg safe!! Well, I must alert the media, that'll make the front pages. Oh hang on, April 1st- I get it.
A Swedish couple who went on the last fantastic contract offer were victims of a home invasion. Tied up at gunpoint, the woman avoided being raped when the intruders were disturbed, thought the better of it, and fled. Just another day in safe, sunny Joberg!
Rumour has it that the pot will be a bit sweeter (ie. there may be some housing assistance) than what the locals are on (which is about 17K Rand per month after tax). The downside is that the locals are not happy about it- so don't expect to be welcomed with open arms. Watch this space.

Apparently, those who went last time had a (with the obvious exceptions) good time- saw the country, bit of an adventure, lived it up etc. but didn't make any money. It depends what you want out of it. And the reception may be different this time

126,7

In order to feel safe, you need to stay in a part of town where security is part of the furniture so to speak. Houses are expensive in those areas!! Your kids need to go to a private school and if you want to live like the rest of the Europeans do, which means that your wife doesnt have to go get a job just to make ends meet, you need to earn 25k plus after deductions. Then you are more or less on par with a junior captain on a mid-ship of the local flag carrier. In Europe we earn the same as a A320 captain and in SA the lads are getting the salary of a Dash 8 co-jo!! Not much buying power there!
I would only go if I could enjoy the country and not have to offer up my savings just to help ATNS out of their dilema. And in order to enjoy my stay, I would need days off!!!

Dumas

Dear Ferris

This is what I think of the ATNS managers and their lies

However, and here's what I was trying to say in my last post, there is a faint little glimmer of hope on the horizon. The new MATS starts on monday and those who know him know that his appointment is long overdue! He's the best man for the job.

Also, even though the multi nationals who have invested heavily in the security industry in SA would hate to admit it, Jo'burg is not a war zone. IT'S NOT LAGOS!!!!! Living here is not that bad.

The positive tone to my previous post was not intended to praise ATNS but to let anyone who is interested in taking the offer know that it might be worth considering.

NO you will not get rich, NO they (ATNS) will not change overnight. But if it's a new experience you're after in a damn nice country, well then pack your bags and check it out!

Just a matter of interest, some ATC's at FAJS are getting 9 days off and 4 standby shifts per cycle. And that's what we're all working towards. If that is achieved I'm staying right here. If we can't fill up the other pools I too am out of here!

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Further information regarding the proposed short term transfer of ASA staff to South Africa. This appeared in ASA internal email today. It looks like SA's requirements are growing from the original handful of troops.


"To: All ATC Staff

Subject: ATNS South Africa ATC Opportunities


There has been substantial negotiation and discussions over the last three weeks about how and under what conditions work in South Africa as an Air Traffic Controller could be managed. We now have in principle agreement between ATNS South Africa and Airservices Australia that there will be a contract between the two organisations for provision of qualified staff. This means that selected staff would remain employees of Airservices Australia for the time in South Africa and be paid and supported by Airservices Australia.

Those who opt to go to South Africa will be offered individual agreements which will specify all conditions of engagement. While not final, it is expected to consist of current salary and conditions such as superannuation, leave, an accommodation allowance and medical insurance.

A representative from ATNS, Charles Norval, will be in Melbourne from Monday 14 April and I am co-ordinating the availability of staff who have expressed interest to participate in an interview process. I will arrange for a similar process in Brisbane on Wednesday and Thursday next week or possibly the week after. Given the short notice of this visit I have not been able to arrange in time for this advice anywhere outside Melbourne or Brisbane but will advise on that next week.

The determination of who goes will be a combination of personal availability, and agreement, Airservices Australia operational requirements as to timing of release, and ATNS interview. ATNS have asked whether any TMA rated staff would be immediately available and I have co-ordinated with local managers and some individuals on their ability to go on short notice.

Longer term, ATNS have advised, they may require up to 20 Enroute and TMA staff for Johannesburg and possibly other locations. Training and endorsement requirements in South Africa mean that a staggered release would be required; consequently, immediate availability is not the only criteria.

I apologise for the lack of advice in recent days but the situation has been such that there was little I could offer over the original advice."

SM4 Pirate

Any suggestion that the Ozzies would utilised a potential strike 'breakers' for the upcoming negotiations?

Are the locals going to be all Rosie when they find out the Ozzies will be on nearly double their wage and getting an accommodation allowance to boot?

Or are things just that desperate that no one will care?

Bottle of Rum

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Just after I posted that last update, I heard from a usually reliable source that there are already a few confirmed starters for the TMA jobs.

I don't know anything about them being used as strikebreakers, however it wouldn't surprise me. The management here would jump at that sort of thing if the situation was reversed and they thought they could get away with it.

sep

ferris

Some of my colleagues have prompted me to post a warning.
Mr Norval (the ex-MATS) is the reason most controllers left. He is, allegedly, a liar of high order, and one should get EVERY DETAIL in writing. Quote: " He will sell you the sugar factory, and when you get there, it is actually a 5hit farm" eg. they are working regularly for 4 hours without a break. If you want a break every 2 hours or whatever, get it in writing. There is nothing in their CARs etc to protect you in relation to duty limitations.
The locals see this as sculduggery of the highest order. They have just completed negotiations for their next contract, receiving pay rises that will not become clear until they are actually sighted (a very complex computer modelling system), then find Charles off to oz to recruit some higher paid foreigners. Going down very well, it seems.
Another thing to check on is your tax situation. Sources tell me that you will be liable for SA tax, which can be higher than oz (jeeeez!!). Things like novated leases etc. don't exist. BE CAREFUL.
Aside from the previously mentioned problems to deal with, you will also need a car to get to work. Cars are about double the price in SA.
I sound very negative. All I am saying is BE FULLY INFORMED before signing up. Get in contact with the guys on the floor, to give you a balanced view. I'm sure Mr. Norval will oblige- after all, he has nothing to hide, does he?

TrafficTraffic

It would be interesting to hear from some of our South African colleagues and see what their stance on these jobs are. And if they are 'strike breakers' what Civil Air will do about it.

Hey Ferris do you know if the Canadian Snow Goose is still in Qatar - or was that his picture I saw on one of George W's playing cards?

ferris

Apparently he up and left in the middle of the night- rumour has it leaving behind a pile of bills and a lot of empty floor space
Claimed he was to become a 'consultant' in the US!!

I'm sure you will be hearing plenty from the Seth Efricans. They got me to post on their behalf because they are not too confident with all these computer thingies. A lot of them can't read, poor souls, but that is another story.......I don't know that it could be called a 'strike break', even if some of the ATNS people are angry enough to break things.