It's an interesting point you make but when I chose my first instructor I rejected the shirt and tie guys because I thought they were intimidating and just interested in putting me though a sausage machine. I (like most PPL students) was learning for fun - I had no interest in becoming an airline pilot or being taught by someone who wanted to be one or wanted to pretend that he was teaching me to be one. I chose people who seemed to have a passion for aircraft and flying and teaching - and none of those were kitted out with ties ! My views haven't changed much over many years of learning and teaching. I'm not saying that instructors with ties are no good - just that it seems a totally impractical get-up for working with light aircraft.

Sorry WWW, but you mock flight suits in one breath, and then go on about safety and thoughts of post crashing in the next?

Thats a little contradictory is it not, when you consider the fire resistant properties of the flight suit?

I'm with Idlestop on this one; i often wear my old flight suit ( minus the military badges it once accrued ) as its a great place to store odds and sods and my extra pair of prescription glasses.

Dont see where the flightsuit=kn*b argument really gets validity; only perhaps if its worn by some 20 year old ppl with an f-14 tomcat patch on is such berating really necessary i think.

But thats not really what the argument is here now, is it?

Not at all necessary...

Who says flying has to be a stuffy, "professional" activity?? Many people fly because they want to go up and have a blast in the sky with their little c 140!!!

I trained at an airport where the instructors wore jeans and t shirt, the students were trained to be excellent pilots (mostly retirees with some extra cash, and some kids looking to go into the bush, as well as some ag spraying interest) I'm sick of the attitude that all aviation must be airline-oriented. The origins of aviation are far from this... that daredevil spirit of the first aviators has been replaced by starched and pressed clones of the perfect airplane "operator".

My instructors wore jeans, and I still developed excellent habits and good flight discipline. I'll wear collar and tie for pasenger confidence when it is required, but otherwise, I'm going to be comfortable.

The longer this thread is in circulation the smaller the divide gets.

May be shortly the casual look may be more 'en vogue'

Hurrah!

FD

I was mad when i found out that I had to cut my hair, shave my beard, shower, quit certain alternative passtimes, and move out of my tent if i wanted to be a pilot. Good bye, haight ashbury! :(

On the other hand, I feel pretty damn cool in my shirt and tie, and last night i was in the pub and saw a bunch of f 18 pilots come in. DANG! do i ever want one of those nifty flight suits. My heli friends all get to wear them, but if we have them, we'd look pretty darn silly, and of course the mockings might bring back those junior high memories I've kept repressed for so long.

I enjoy instructing immensely and although it was an aid to my hour building, I would have chosen to do it anyway. I love it and will do it until the day I have to stop. I believe teach people at PPl level is all about instilling the basis of learning and enjoyment. I tell my students, whether they have commercial aspirations or not that at this level flying should be two things and if either is missing perhaps they should reconsider continuing their course of train. I believe their flying should be safe ( as in good airmanship and awareness, procedures and checklists, and forward planning and hopefully recognising situations and dealing with them before real problems arise) and fun. They enjoy the experience and have a positive and relaxed air to the learning environment. I think as PPL instruction goes a relaxed dress code it a good thing. I believe in people being smart and tidy, its important to give credibility, but in dressing casualy we are setting a more relaxed tone in an already stressful and tense situation for many students. How many students turn up in collar and tie. A PPL qualification is a gentle introduction to flying, which should teach and inform, and develop certain skills required to fly, and to find out if a person actually enjoys it and wants to pursue it further. Also the point made early on about about teachers and schools is not really a relavant one. Students and teachers dress the same. At school we are teaching children about a certain level of discipline, respect, and presentation in a working environment. Learning to fly is not and shouldn't be considered a working environment. Now I do agree that at a professional level a collar and tie is much more important, but i firmly believe its something to be avoided at PPL level. Enjoy it and learn. One interesting fact, naming no names and being as honestly objective as I can, the one flight school I have worked for that insists on a collar and tie, were the worst flight school you could wish to attend. From an inside view point I can say that while some instructors were very good, all were inexperienced and the vast majority of my collegues didn't give a stuff about the PPL student and basically used them to suit there own requirements. The training was poor, but at least they wore a collar and tie. The equipment at the establishment, in terms of A/C, whilst plentiful also left a lot to be desired. I got myself out of this place, because although I love instructing and needed to build hours at the time, it wasn't a place I felt happy to be associated with. All show and no substance. I went to a small friendly flying school and everything returned to normal. Part timers did what they could and made efforts for their students and gave encouragement and help. One day a new recruit joined our fraternaty, a collar and tie wearer amongst the midst of polo shirts, and even after being there over a year, he was the worst and most dangerous instructor you could find. Ignorant arrogant and self opinionated. but he did wear a collar and tie. Does that tell us something. Relax and enjoy your PPL flying and make it a safe and orderly, but calming and friendly experience. One last thing, this is something I have experienced and will leave for you to ponder. What would you prefer, clean or collar and tie. I have had many clean tidy casual instructors, but only in the collar and tie brigade have I found ones shall we say less than clean and with a certain odour. Personal cleanliness and being presentable and not exclusive to wearing a collar and tie.

ok - so that was a ridiculously long post from koogar- but I must say it made an awful lot of sense to me !

Your right, I was so bored, half way through a twelve hour night ops duty. Still that post took up half my time. What does it matter.

seems kind of ridiculous to me. But the customer is king. Wheres my clip-on?

Terrible Ties
 

Here in Africa ,where the cockpit temperature can soar
to upper 30's ,it's total lunacy to even think of a tie.
In coastal areas the humidity levels are very high too.

You bunch in the colder northern climates can keep your flapping ,gravy-stained dangling tie.
You surely must agree that in & around aircraft they present more danger than "good look" potential.

However a neat white "pilot"shirt with navy or black or even khaki trousers with socks & proper shoes still looks good;
provided all staff at a school/club wear identical kit to bond the staff-group together

A brass name plate is the only other embellishment required in my humble opinion.




:) :) :D

Judging by the responses here, it is no wonder why the flight training industry, especially small schools, is struggling to attract students. Remember to a new comer aviation is a glamorous industry( the un ifroms are all part of it). I have always wondered why people choose to go to big name schools despite their higher costs and it's due to the falling level of professionalism.
Remember that flying schools are businesses. Most students expect professionalism in a flight school and in today's society a shirt and tie is the first sign of it. The first way to get customers in any business is to be professional and presentable. Flight training is an expensive undertaking just like buying a house. If b4 a potential buyer comes to inspect a house for sale you say " I'm not going to tidy up the house, so it looks ordinary, plus i'm just going to were shorts and no shirt", then you know what the obvious outcome will be.
This is no different in the flight training industry. Remember joe Public's idea of a pilot is a grey-haired with a neat black uniform(TIE INCLUDED) rolling a leather case down the terminal.
I did my intro flight with a PPL instructor who was dressed in a shirt and tie, and that didn't prevent me from getting hooked on flying.
Remember pilot's uniforms, flight suits and bars are the kind of things that wannabees have on their wish list.
And if I may add (on a lighter note), member of the opposite sex seem to find men in uniform kind of sexy (:D :D :D .
Remember that in this society, professionality is judged first by appearance. you might be chuck yeager, but there is a very good chance your next customer thinks chuck yeager is some republican senator!!
food for thought

just had a quick peep into the forum and had to make a post.

i'm an even lower form of life than most being a HELI instructor!

i always wear a tie, always a clip on( you think planes have a lot of spinning bits!) and always dress in natural fibres.

you look a plank in marks and sparks asking for 100% cotton trousers and shirts but it is better than being shrunk wrapped in the a/c!

i also wear nomex gloves when flying, a hangover from learning to fly, does anyone remember quite how sweaty the conrols on the students side get?!

in summer the tie can come off and go to shirt sleeve rule and in long trousers it is not a problem in any of the little perspex bubbles i fly over 700 hours a year in!

I support pholooh 100%, well said !


HfP

---------------------------

Life is not Bananas !!

I see there is a posting on the flyer forum which would suggest some prospective student would welcome an instructor in ONLY a collar and tie.... someone there apparently want to learn in the nude! :)

Nude Flying

NUDE! ........... F**K the air taxi off .........anyone offering FI(R)?:) :D :) :O :p

I have always taught in either a grow bag or a collar and tie. However I see nothing wrong in polo shirts of similar AS LONG AS they are uniform. Everyone wearing the same monikered polo shirt, name badge and trousers would be acceptable I imagine.

Let the professionalism atmosphere come from the language, the bearing and the deeds of the instructors.

One week I was being charged out at £75hr for PA28 PPL
instruction wearing my own combination of uniform & CWFJ at a PPL school.

The next I was being charged out at £160hr for PA28 PPL instruction wearing my own combination of uniform and CWFJ at an Integrated school.

In the final analysis the professionalism isn't related to the dress code, nor the price.

WWW

No wonder instructors find it hard to claim their role as that of a 'professional' if 48% of the voters on this issue (presumeably instructors) vote for jeans and nose rings. In every other job I have had I have worn a suit and tie in order to portray a professional image, so why should instructing be any different?

If you want to be a bohemian, go paint pictures for a living and but a pack of gitannes. (Apologies to all you french instructors.)

Did I miss the jeans and nose ring option??

Personally an instructor can look smart and professional or a scruffy runt in anything, it all depends on the person and their attitude.

Myself, I would prefer dark trousers and a well-ironed shirt, opened necked.

my ex cfi used to turn up in blue jeans and a t-shirt, i and all the other instructors had shirt and tie on.

overhearing what the cfi's trial lesson said makes me agree with most on this forum.. insstructors are professionals and should dress as such.. shirt and tie for me everyday !

Another unreasonably long post
 

Image and professionalism:

I have worked at three schools so far, the first was shirt, tie and gold bars, at the second, trousers and polo shirt were fine and at the third back to shirt, tie and gold bars.

The first was teaching modular from PPL through I/R, in the US.

Could somebody please tell me what is professional about a schools owner or marketing staff lying to students about the balance of their accounts, the availability of instructors or examiners etc ?

Also what is professional about having an instructor staff of which 90% were not properly qualified to fly commercially or instruct in that country, or about instructors who file IFR flight plans on the strength of UK IMC ratings ?

Or about sending students on illegal solo flights without endorsements from properly authorised instructors ?

Or sending students and renters flying in aircaft which are out of hours, telling them that they can be flown on a 10 hour extension when that is actually illegal in that country ?

Or most of the instructors not even having the legal right to work in that country ? Funnily enough I believe one of them even ended up in jail, no doubt still wearing his gold bars.

I could go on but I won't because it's obviously fine if the instructors all wear shirts and ties ! And believe me flying at a latitude of 35 degrees there has to be a good reason for that. It's called trying to hide something with overkill.

The second school was a fairly typical UK flying club where trousers and polo shirt were fine. Well I assume they were because they supplied the polo shirts. So what is wrong with smart but casual in that type of environment. Despite the future ambitions of some, the majority of people involved in club flying are doing it as a leisure activity and private flying is part of the leisure industry. There also has to be a practical side. What is the point of wearing a white shirt knowing that by the end of the day it will have additional permanent decoration courtesy of dry wipe pens, grass tie downs, dipsticks etc.

My current school is again shirt, tie and gold bars and that is what I would expect at an integrated one. Its what people, particularly those from airlines, want to see when they come visiting, so let them see it.

Have I got something against shirts and ties ? Absolutely not, I love them whenever it's the right thing to wear. But wear them properly. For those who consider a shirt and tie always implies professionalism either when on you or those who you deal with, consider:

If I visit you and am expecting you to be wearing a shirt and tie and you are wearing a polo shirt I might be a little surprised but I will hear you out. Why am I expecting you to wear a shirt and tie anyway, do I know everything that your job involves ?

If you are wearing a tie but the knot is one of those which is vertical down one side and sloping down the other rather than a decent winsor I am not going to do business with you, the image suggests you don't really know the best way of doing things.

If you are wearing a shirt but it is not ironed I am not going to do business with you as the image suggests you can't organise and complete what really needed doing.

Some shirts are designed to be worn with ties and some without. Those designed to be worn with a tie look absolutely soooo NAFF when worn open collared so be careful when you take the tie off in summer. The image suggests you might be a Medallion Man.

If you appear at first sight perfectly presented, albeit possibly in what somebody else has instructed you to wear, but call me 'mate' when you don't even know me...........