Class-E is just upset as somebody else has done what he wants to do... that is, to fly in EU. Poor sod probably cannot tell the difference between airplane and a cow.
I would not get too worried about his comments.
You will find idiots regardless where you go and what your profession is.

For all you who share those negative attitudes about your fellow aviators so apparent on this thread.
I suggest that you visit Agony Aunt forum and relieve your childhood time frustrations there.

I fully understand critical conversation,but the intolerance for and prejudice displayed by some contributors to this forum just does not stop amazing me.
All of this Anti-american BS mostly from same people has started to annoy me a little.
Well let me tell you something. Without Americans and their help Onkel Adolf would have been goose-stepping around Piccadilly and put you in to your places, now would that have been fun??

Gramps tells us that his R/T is good... well obvously it is, he is afterall flying for an airline as an F/O.
I have never had any problems flying around the world either.So I would have to come to a conclusion that my R/T is pretty good too. Atleast I use standard ICAO phraseology.

JJ

[This message has been edited by JJflyer (edited 15 December 1999).]

Captain Homesick,

I was hoping to get your opinion on my post of 13 Dec.
Since I have never had the experience of flying with an American Pilot, my perception of them, right or wrong, is based upon what I hear and what I read here.
Any thoughtful feedback would thus be greatly appreciated.

Pub45

------------------
Watch thine airspeed
Lest the ground arise and smite thee

The nature of this medium is trapping many people into becoming overly angry. We would all get along just fine in the bar I am sure.

Its a valid discussion thread and highly relevant to many of us so I do not want to lock it.

I - for one - find that some students from the States are appalling. I draw no further conclusions.

WWW

WWW
I'll keep my temper under control.
It seems that there are some very good points that come out, regardless of all the mud that is thrown...

JJ

Pub45, flying like Americans is no big problem. If they've flown for a major airline, then they will be up to scratch- there may be small differences in "presentation", but that's about it. Any doubts I have are about their training system- it tends to assume you will follow the ordained path: student, instructor, commuter, regional, then major.
You're probably right, those that succeed in the commuter and regionals pick up the experience they need, and receive further training as required. I suppose it's understandable, their system supports them so well in operation that much of what we learn is superfluous. Climatology is unlikely to be necessary, given the excellent standard of met briefing they can obtain. And if you can have an entire career flying round one enormous country, with everybody a native speaker of your language, does it matter if you don't use exact terminology on the R/T?

On my first day of line training, I spoke to controllers in the UK, the Netherlands, and Germany. The following week it was Germany again, France, Austria. Then Italy, Switzerland and Finland. My R/T had to be standard!

It was interesting, when I worked in the US, to hear the sort of questions the commuters were asking at interview. It was a bit like our ATPL exams- people sweated about them far more than about their FAA writtens. Everything from basic aerodynamics to patterns of lights at airfield were asked. I've never been asked things like that at an interview in the UK- ok, a couple of very technical questions, one or two on CRM, but not a whole bunch of them.
I've also flown with one or two UK captains (CAA licenced, trained in the UK) whose skills seemed deficient to me. In the minority, sure, but they exist. So I guess the short answer is, watch whoever you fly with, learn from if you can, but be prepared.
Sorry about that, the answer seemed to drag on longer than I meant!

Gentlemen,

I find it hard to believe I have to defend my skills against neophytes and dreamers. Yes, I am trained in the USA, but born and raised in Europe. Came here to pursue avaiation at a time when no one was doing any hiring in Europe, one thing led to another and ended up staying.

I have flown all over the world and have never had any problems, whether it be with R/T, flying approaches or weather. In general I found the wx briefings in Europe to be better than the US, but the actual wx no different. An ILS is an ILS. Flying in Africa is worse than South America and so on.

Are americans substandard pilots, I strongly disagree. As someone mentioned there are differences in presentation, but are our skills below par? No, the accident statistics does not support such a finding.

Flying is a mixture of knowledge and experience. It helps to know the why's about thunderstorms and also to deviate around them.

Too many people in here are bashing just for the sake of it, without any real reason or justification. Why is that, what does it accomplish? Maybe it makes them feel better about their "skills", who knows, I for one certainly don't care for it. Yes, it does seem that the sentiment is americans cannot fly, but then again, how many americans have actually responded to this thread? Perhaps that is because we do not care about a few #ssholes that have big mouths and small brains. 'nuff said!!!



------------------
It's been real, it's been fun, but it has not been real fun

Diesel8,

If you have never had any problems then you haven't been flying long enough.



[This message has been edited by Swamp (edited 16 December 1999).]

Having problems... NO I have not had problems flying ANYWHERE in the world where the cause would have been training I received in US.
above is what i think Diesel8 tried to say.

Training I got in US does not make me any better nor does it make me any worse than you fellows who are solely been trained in UK.
As I have received training on both continents I think that I have received better from both worlds.
Anyways...


JJ

Swamp,

I think you get the drift and yes most of my logbook is written in blood, but thats probably due to my flying skill rather than my edumacuation!!

Personally, I'd rather be lucky than good. To be both would be nice, but I'm not sure if humans can do that.....

Capt H - I don't think your passengers would be terribly happy with that sentiment!! I'm sure they'd sooner fly with someone who aspires to high standards rather than puts his trust in luck..........!!

BEagle, it doesn't matter how good you are, there are some situations that can get you. Unless you are infallible?

Beagle and Class-E are above the "skill" called luck.

Sorry - but there is no place in aviation for trusting to luck!! You must have the relevant skills even though you don't have to be an ace pilot. For example, it's stupidity that gets an unrated pilot into IMC, luck that stops him killing himself. But it's skill that allows him to avoid the situation in the first place!!

What is it when you're flying a hold in clear air, and a CB develops below you and you get struck by Lightning? I like to think it was skill that got our chestnuts out of the fire that day, but I'd rather not have been struck in the first place!

Seems we have two camps here..the European "best in the world" and the rest of the world. Here's my bit:

I've flown with american private pilots who I couldn't sign off for their BFRs as well as rental checkouts to UK private pilots who were so rusty in their skills, it doesn't suprise me that (UK) accident reports show problems with takeoffs and landings.

I am a Brit living and working here in the USA working for a small pt 61 school. Sure, we don't have the resources of OATS, Flightsafety et al..but I personally insist students know visual nav by pilotage and dead reckoning, including flying into busier airspace. GPS is great but is just one tool to use.

Sure, the US system is different. It's like comparing apples and pears, but I don't think one can seriously argue that a British Airways captain is a "better" pilot than a United Airlines captain. Once an individual has gained enough practical experience and knowledge, it doesn't matter how or where they trained.

What IS different is avgas @ $2.00 per gallon, less restricted airspace, less risk of military low-flying accidents and a far more user-friendly and economical offical body to deal with.

Long live Uncle Sam! :-)

Its nice to read so many unbiased opinions (not). Would it be fair to conclude then that:
a) All USA trained pilots are rubbish irrespective of whether they are British or US citizens?

b) British trained pilots are better pilots whether flying in the USA or UK !

c) The standard of training at all US schools
is inferior to UK schools.

Need I go on ??

I have not heard such talk since my infants school days......"my dad can beat up your dad" etc etc

God, what a lot of old jet blast!!!

------------------
To make a dream come true, first WAKE UP !

SENSIBLE

I could not agree more... It just seems to be very hard for some individuals to understand and comprehend those facts you brought up.

JJ

Here is my take on all this.

I've concerted a few US trained guys back to CAA licences, and they turned out to be pretty good. However, the sample size was small, and they were low end CPL / Instructors at approx 1500 hrs, rather than raw PPLs.

I've also done a bit of flying in the states, hiring aircraft from 2 flying schools at which europeans were doing PPLs. And I have to say that I was concerned by the quality of the courses they were receiving. There were some perfectly capable instructors, but they were working flat out and the overall supervision of the course just wasn't there. In fact, both schools had recently qualified PPLs write of an aircraft, in one case fatally. One of these schools is now out of business, and the other is somewhat notorious on this site. Mentioning no names but its on the east coast of Florida....

Now, I accept that my experience of the US situation has been pretty negative, especially because of the fatality, and 2 schools is not a representative sample. Nevertheless, I'd be lying if I said that the overall quality didn't concern me. Even so, that does not mean all US trained pilots are crap any more than it means all UK trained pilots are perfect!

Bleh. All I've done so far is repeat things others have already said. Time for something different...

I reckon students who go across to the UK to train for a PPL in a concentrated lump have got 2 big things going against them:

1. Stuff is different.
2. Knowledge Retention (or lack thereof).


Stuff Is Different.

My pet theory is that the difference between a flight that is going fine, and another flight that goes to worms, can often be a minor increase in workload. In the first case, you've got a bit of spare capacity, in the other you're 'maxed out'.

So when a student suddenly seems to 'click', and starts to be able to hack it, it looks like they've somehow radically improved their skill. But I reckon that what is actually happening is the student is gradually learning stuff, and eventually makes the transition between working at 101% capacity and working at 99% capacity.

As you get more experienced, you have more spare capacity. But the newly qualified PPL holder doesn't, and therefore anything which requires brain power may well nudge the poor sod back over the 100% workload barrier and bring everything tumbling down.

Now your US trained PPL getting checked out in the UK (*or vice versa*) has an accumulation of stuff which is different. OK, a Cessna - 152 is still the same aircraft, but we all know that aircraft handling is only a small part, (albeit an important one) of being a pilot.

The RT is different. The charts are different. The sorts of nav features which are good fixes are different. Instrument / Comm / Nav fit may be different. Sources of weather data are different. None of these changes is staggering, but its 'death of a thousand cuts' territory.

A more experienced pilot has the spare capacity to take these changes in his/her stride. But the newly qualified PPL, by and large, does not. Therefore they are likely to fly like a chimp.

In other words, I reckon a would be PPL would be wise to train in the environment they plan to fly in after they have completed their training. Then build up experience in the same environment. Then branch out.


Knowledge Retention (or lack thereof)

I'm not a big fan of people doing PPLs in concentrated courses.

Its a bit like cramming for an exam. The student may well have enough knowledge / skills stuffed inside his head to complete the course, but how well will it be retained?

Especially if the savings have all just been spent in one lump, and it will be a while before things can be consolidated once the new PPL returns to their country of origin.

I reckon its better to accept the uncertainties of the UK weather. If the student can't fly, theres no end of other things they can productively do. Groundschool, Briefings, Practice drills, etc.

Spread the course out, there more to it than the time spent in the air.

So basically, I'm saying that even assuming quality of instruction is identical in the US and UK, I reckon US trained pilots will perform poorly when first flying in the UK. Obviously it is a sweeping generalisation, but I think there are inherent factors which make it likely.

Oh, and as I mentioned above, the same factors would apply the other way around, but I don't suppose many Americans decide to visit the UK to do a PPL!

In completion, the first time I visited the States I had about 200 hrs of experience. The combination of small changes in the environment, compared to what I was used to, did make me feel like I was flying slightly below par. It was a feeling which rapidly went away, but I'm sure that the check flight I did on arrival was not my most polished performance.

CPB

Excellent points Pit Bull. And BEagle, no offence meant- I stand by what I said about needing some luck, but I also believe that we make our own luck by training, practice, and always giving 100%.
:)

Its good to see that this thread has calmed down; seemingly come to an end. Could it be that there is a consensus, or just that everybody's off vacationing? I was.

Capt. Homesick: thanks for the response.


------------------
'Watch thine airspeed
Lest the ground arise and smite thee!'

Since I started this thread, may I finish?? Although I've encountered some very poor PPL holders who had done 'quickie' courses in the USA, I am quite prepared to believe that there are equally some very good US-trained PPL holders - it's just that I haven't yet met one, but that's as may be.
Incidentally, I also encountered a UK-trained PPL holder last year who wanted a check out but didn't even have a valid licence as her CofE was out of date - although she had done some recent flying. We thus launched off to do a GFT - and her flying was so poor that, apart from the fact that she failed dismally, I would have serious doubts about letting her have command of a wheelbarrow - and certainly not a bicycle!!

I did my initial flying training in the USA, and I felt that I good have had more CAA type thorough basic ability and awareness training.It was good having to do my CAA RT licence over here in England.
However, whilst I was doing my hour building for my commercial I was able to practice approaches and landings at the major airports, Tampa, Orlando int. and Miami int. all for free and getting used to following ATC instructions to the letter whilst slotting in between 757,767, airbus etc.

So the USA does have its advantages, however I agree that there should be more screening of schools offering JAA and CAA ratings.

One point though, if you are going to criticise certain schools, have the courage to name them!
I went to Britannia in Florida..

An excellent choice indeed! you could have done much much worse!

I got my PPL in the US.

Shame on me.

Or not, read on...

I then joined the University Air Squadron, so I believe I have something to compare the training to.

Maybe I was lucky- my instructor had had already validated his ATPL with 1500h, and had actually stopped logging the single engine hours he was flying(????). He stayed on as an instructor, though, just until his conversion course (to UK ATPL) started. The instruction he gave me was second to none, and I mean NONE, including the instruction I was given in the UAS.

Starts walking towards the bunker

I was given some pretty poor instruction by an instructor I had for my IMC, also in Florida- so much so that I was tested on ILSs during my flight test and told the examiner (after my third failed attempt) that I'd never done one, because with all the instruction given to me by Mr V***** *a*i*a, that was what seemed like the truth.

Thankfully (or not?), the instruction given to me by my PPL instructor was enough for me to pass the test on an SRA (bear in mind that this is mid afternoon Florida in June. Turbelence? just a bit).

So, I think to generalise that all instructors 'over there' are bad is unfair. There are some bad ones, but as I know there are some bloody good ones too.

Hello All,

I just glance through this topic and found a lot of things to say. Firstly, I did flying in the US, and have all my hours for a PPL, but unfortunately, the school was backlogged and I did not have a chance to do a checkride. As for the self taught part, sometimes it helps to help yourself, and it does save some money and brains to understand the stuff.

I don't know much about flying in the UK, but one comment I must make is that I get a feeling from some CFIs, not all, that once they get their hours, they are not into teaching anymore. That sort of disappoint me.

Flying was born in the US of A and even though it became more popular in UK, I think I will give credit for flying in the US.

Hope that didn't insult anyone. Thanks.

Note to all American trained pilots: we are all shiite. Further more if we don't clean up our act Tinky Winky and the Queen Mother are going to be very cross. Cheerio.

Note to all American trained pilots: we are all shiite. Further more if we don't clean up our act Tinky Winky and the Queen Mother are going to be very cross. Cheerio.

Is there anything to the theory that Percy Pilcher would never have got his powered aircraft to fly, simply because "Cardross, near Helensburgh" sounds far less cool as a birthplace for aviation than Kitty Hawk sands?

Yes Dicko... Beware

JJ

BEagle....Your a w***er aren't you?
I could tell by the way you pretend everyone else is of a lower form to make yourself feel a bit better.
Hows the home life?


[This message has been edited by Towbar (edited 05 February 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Towbar (edited 05 February 2000).]

No, my dear Oz chum, I don't believe I'm a w***er. I presume you mean 'wonder'?? All I've been saying is that some people seem to have not been trained terribly well - whether in the USA, UK, Europe, Australia or Mars for that matter isn't significant. Because the 2 I came across in a short space of time had both been through a similar training scheme and both had similar poor levels of understanding and application, I wondered whether this was generally indicative of an overall poor training system, or whether it was just the 2 of them who weren't particularly good. I don't yet know the answer to that - but I do NOT think that ALL non-UK trained pilots are poor; there are good and bad pilots in every country.
Home life's just fine thanks, old bean, since you had the kindness to ask. How's glorious Oz??

there is a certian amount of truth in this US pilot hullabaloo. i have flown with captains (most of whom are fairly low time for the position) and have considered some of their judgments as a bit dubious.

but seeing as I'm 100% USA trained (NAIA) who am I to talk?

doesn't mean to say that I don't like to hear people slagging off yankee drivers. My instructor was f***ing brilliant. so, bEagle, I resent your comments and have to agree with an aforementioned post. (but only because you're chip on the shoulder UAS type).

Right - I'll try it again in even simpler English. I have flown with 2 US-trained PPLs. Both were poor. Are others better?? I don't know because I haven't met any other US-trained ones yet. But whoever trained these 2 did a very poor job. Others would probably have done a better one.
Is that simple enough for you to understand?

So you started this whole thread on account of two PPLs , right ?

I was originally a US trained PPL. Now I have taught FAA and CAA PPLs and CPLs. I have done rental checks for US, UK, other parts of europe and Oz trained pilots and believe me I could tell you horror stories from the lot except the Oz - this is not an invitation for the Oz's to get mouthy, it was only one , so by Beagle's logic it implies nothing but is worth starting a row about!

FAA pilots can be horribly ill disciplined at times. Equally annoying are the CAA ones who are dangerously inflexible "This is the right way because it's what I was taught in England and I'm not adapting it for anyone", and again believe me, this is so common.

Yes - because I was so asonished at their staggering lack of prowess I merely sought to establish whether they were typical products of certain '3-week instant pilot' establishments. I certainly hope that they weren't. But, on the other hand, I've only ever heard high praise concerning Oz standards.

Beagle, i once ate 2 apples from the us, and they were both disgusting....that must mean every single apple there tastes like **** , right??!! Why is it that you poms think you are the best at everything..wake up and smell the coffee son!!

I've flown with many US trained PPLs most of who weren't as good as theyshould be to have a licence.

The problem isn't that the British think they're the best, its just that would be pilots go the the US for cheap licences. They go to schools which push them through the PPL too quickly and with too much hand holding. Then they come home to Great Britain where every thing in aviation is wierd to them, They probably haven't flown in months and virtually can't fly.

Some off my own students who have been to America told me the instructor they had pulled their flying to bits and the different ideas (joining downwind at 45 degrees) mesmerised them.

Airprox

BEagle -

NW, is that you?

Jawohl, Herr Flangemeister. Du bist korrekt!! Und du bist.....??
Die Fahne hoch......!!