Anyone with any comments on American r/t....?!

(Light blue touchpaper and run! :))

Hahahaha... Same chaps here... Pheasant Plucker.
As I have an accent and I have been trained in US , I am hardly worthy to comment anything...hahahah

JJ

P.S Its time for me to climb back to my tree.

[This message has been edited by JJflyer (edited 14 September 1999).]

Sorry folks,but why,actually are you discussing things like that?I was an instructor in the US,and I had to check out german PPLs,that wanted to fly there-,I refused to sign them off,because the skills they showed me were SO INCREDIBLY BAD,no idea about stall/spin awareness,etc.
OK,but still,I dont think that all students from germany are bad,not at all.It is just that I know the training environment in the US and in Germany,and It seems to me,the US system is more practical oriented.

On the other hand,I had students coming over from Florida to our school(California),and their skills were INCREDIBLY bad...

So,there are good schools out there,and there are bad ones.Because students from europe want to train for the least money,they go to the worst schools,and,get the worst training.

How can they expect to get good training for very little money(like PPL for 2200USD..)

BTW sorry about my English,but its not my mother tongue.

Another Brit instructor throws himself to the Lions....

In several years of instructing I've "converted" 2 US trained PPLs, 1 NZ trained PPL and flown with a large number of UK and European pilots. There's always going to be a range of piloting skills due to natural aptitude but, in my limited experience and from this very small non-European sample, (gulp), a 100% of those I've flown with who were trained in the US were at the lower end of the skill range. They both got their FAA licenses in minimum hours.
Typical problems were a total inability to use Visual nav techniques, poor approach speed control, abject terror when a wing dropped at the stall and a lack of "captaincy".
I've flown with others who have done some training in the US and heard awful stories.
I'm sure that there are a large number of excellent pilots who trained in the US but it's just that I haven't met them yet and we all form our opinions based on our own experiences.

Is there any space left in that bunker?

I did my PPL out in the US and I went back this year to build some hours. At the CAA school I used automatic passes on reaching 40 hours were not the order of the day.

I was fortunate last year to have British Instructors, chaps out there this year were sitting their Nav exams having never seen a CAA 1/2mil! The US instructors - whilst absolutly excellent were not always up to speed on the CAA sylabus.

Another school not a million miles away from a certain raceway had a VERY serious accident whilst I was over there this year - one of their overused Cessnas became a lawn dart at night. I am led to believe that the ethos of the school concerned was to have students fly during the day and hour builders fly at night.

I have also heard that someone did a survey on the pilots involved in GASIL reports and found that a high proportion originated from the same school.

I'm not going to suggest that CAA/JAA training be banned outside of Europe but I think the CAA should be taking more of an interest in how these places are run and the state of the aircraft being used. I've also found some pretty apaulling pilots over here who've spent all their PPL lives flying in the UK for 5 hours every year - its not only the USA that breeds them

[This message has been edited by StudentInDebt (edited 14 September 1999).]

I've flown as a student with instructors who were trained in the US, Canada and the UK.

BEagle - I suggest that complete cluelessness at being asked to trim for an attitude or explain how you were taught to do X, may be more of a terminology problem than a knowledge problem. For example, American pilots are taught to "trim for airspeed." In my admittedly limited sample (2 Brits and 2 Americans) the Brits put more emphasis on intellectually knowing what's going on, while the Americans put more emphasis on "just fly the plane, damnit." We Canadians, as always, come up the middle.
(Why did the Canadian cross the road?)

When I fly with a new instructor, whereever they are from, there is usually something they are surprised that I don't know AND something I've already learned from someone else, that I teach them.

I taught in the UK before doing a stint as a 509 QFI in the US- working at one of the best flying schools in the country, which was a part of the largest civilian FTO in the world (no prizes for guessing which company!).
Even this large FTO had some serious gaps in training. For example, company policy banned landing on grass runways. This led to students being taught rough field ops by instructors who had never themselves done it for real, and who had in turn been taught by instructors who had never done it, and who had in turn....
Some of the US instructors trained for, and achieved, CAP509 approval: those who succeeded were excellent instructors, and completely belie any accusations that Yanks can't teach flying. However, they had considerably more inst. experience than some of their colleagues. As a contributor has said, the biggest problem (IMHO) with FAA instructors is that they don't need to be experienced to teach commercial courses, rather than PPL. Even to teach INSTRUCTORS, an FAA CFI only needs to have done 200 hours instructing!
And that leads us to a problem. Under JAA, the instructional experience of FIs is much less than that for 509. At the same time, the course is shorter! On balance, I prefer the CAA syllabus, and the level of standardisation required of 509 schools.
Again IMHO, the US system works for the US because their airlines use the commuters to weed out those unsuitable for larger aircraft. In the UK, and in much of Europe, we do not have anything like the number of commuter companies. Population densities are such that the distance which might support a Beech 1900 in many parts of the US, will support a 737 (or at least an ERJ145). Therefore, the weeding out has to be done in the training process. Hence, UK licences, and many other European licences, were a real pain to obtain. The good US schools are aware of this: the mediocre ones put out a US product (possibly a good product, but for the wrong market) for a European requirement. The bad schools: just don't go there.
Room for any more in the bunker?

There we are ... Good show StudenInDept...
Some nice pointers there.


JJ

Captain Homesick,

No need to run for the bunker, I am FAA ATP, flight instructor, driving big birds. I totally agree!!!

Captain Homesick,

Some excellent points sir. Thanks for that.
I wonder though if what you're saying could be interpreted as meaning that pilots get an oportunity to 'improve' as they move through the commuters - the weeding out being of those who fail to do so. Or fail to do so enough. If that is true, than I would be inclined to believe that foreign students training ab-intio to CPL in the US would be returning home with 'incomplete' skills. As you mentioned, most (all?) other countries do not have the setup of commuters that the states does.
IMHO, many trainees opt not to go to the US, despite its economic incentive, because of this reason.
Similarly, as the title of this thread was, US trained private pilots, would appear to have been left to fend for themselves in the fine tuning department.

P45


------------------
'Watch thine airspeed
Lest the ground arise and smite thee'

[This message has been edited by Pub 45 (edited 13 December 1999).]

Ref RT how about this;

American aircraft being flown in the UK by an American female......

Aircraft - "Hello x this is C/S requesting the QNH"

x - "The london QNH is 1029"

Aircraft - "Roger... can I get it in inches?"

Anonymous aircraft flown by a british male - "Oh yeah..... give it to her real hard!"

Oh well, time to add my bit.
You probably know what I am going to say.
I found the training in the USA fine and went on to fly many hours in Europe and the UK. Almost all of my hours for issue of CPL (self improver) were completed either in the USA or in the UK, in a non radio PFA aircraft. The CAA let me complete a non approved IR course despite only having 400 hours TT (most in the US). I did only about 10 hours total for that (including the test). I passed the UK GFT at about the same time.
I went straight from flying light aircraft to large commercial jets and was selected on my ability. Funnily enough, I was the only one on my course (the others were CAP 509 x 2 and an instructor) who was commended during my line training for my excellent RT!!!
Not bad considering virtually the only RT I had done was in the US.
I have a different viewpoint I can throw in here. Whilst hour building in the US I flew with quite a few UK trained PPLs.
The complete lack of ability of basic circuit planning and flying was amazing! With one chap, he could not get the hang of flying a circuit by looking out the window and clung desperately to his instruments.
He hadn't heard of looking out the window.
Once he had tried the "no instrument" approach, he improved, as did his landings.
It seemed amongst those I flew with that there was a total lack of knowledge of the aircraft systems (something which is drummed into you in the FAA syllabus).
RT and pre-flight planning, filing flight plans, talking on the radio in busy terminal areas, flying at UNICOM fields, were all big problems for the UK guys.
So I reckon maybe it works both ways.
I trained in the USA and did most of my flying there. My RT is excellent, and I have had no problems flying in the UK or elsewhere (apart from having to constantly scratch around VFR at low levels).
UK trained pilots came totally unstuck when abroad.
I suppose if you just want to fly in the UK, then training in the UK is sufficient.
If you want to be able to fly anywhere in the world, then consider training in the USA.
I am sure there are good and bad instructors in the USA as there are in the UK.
If the CAA think a school is good enough, it will approve it. This has happened, therefore the CAA are happy that the school is up to standard.

Ref Pheasant Pluckers RT question.....

American Female flying an American AC in UK.

Female: "Hello x this is C/S requesting the london QNH"

C/S: "The London is 1028mb"

Female: "Can I get that in inches please?"

Anon Male in another AC: "OOOOOOOOH yeah..... give it to her real hard!

An interesting post from Grandad Flyer; almost exactly matches my experience checking PPLS out: just reverse the acronyms "USA" and "UK"!

Grandad Flyer with his 'USA bias' again I see! Hmm, 'UK pilots cannot fly abroad', gee old man, give it up will you! Rather stupid thing to say, hmm?

Anyone who reckons that US pilots are better at looking out the window, check out the "Piper+Cessna=Biplane in Florida" thread in Rumours & News.
Somebody used up one of their nine lives there!

ILSNDBVOR...

Grmaps has a point there...Is it so hard to accept plain facts... time for a reality check.
Just another bloke hiding behind a name... no Email address, nothing...
A lot of mouth but absolutely no brains whatsoever.
Gramps has plenty of experience to compare both countries, I am yet to see your credentials.
Makes me really sad .

JJ

Gramps....please take medication AFTER posting on this thread...not before!!!

It sounds like you are really proud of your R/T capabilities..but then what yank trained pilot isn't?

with reference to US trained pilots, my view is simple and unbiased...you suck!

Is that not clear by everybody elses opinions posted here?

[This message has been edited by class-e (edited 17 December 1999).]

class-e thank you for assuming I am American.
I have never been accused of that before.
However I am British through and through. I was born in the UK, grew up in the UK, went to school in the UK, work and live in the UK. I have however flown in the USA and trained out there. I learnt alot. The CAA recognised my FAA licence and experience by substantially reducing the training/ tests I needed to complete for a CAA licence.
I converted my FAA licence to a CAA ATPL and fly commercially now. I am based in the UK, but obviously fly to many different countries.
But hey, if you want to rant and show us your prejudices that is fine.
I think it is someone else who is having problems with their medication.

Class-E,

I think its time you get a glass of warm milk and a nap, sounds like you are getting a little cranky. Remember, children like you should be seen and not heard.

I am somewhat curious as how you could lump so many people into the same category, next thing I expect to hear is that all EU pilots are good!!