Send Clowns,

My last post on this as it's getting a little repetitive...

There should be no conflict, because although there is no formal requirement to be in contact with ATC, there is a requirement to 'conform with the pattern of traffic'. If aircraft conform, they will not conflict!

Yes, in theory, you could fly just outside the ATZ without talking to ADC, but I don't believe you'd be displaying much airmanship.

Nobody so far has said what Cabair actually teaches!

I learned at Beds School of flying, which is Cabair owned. They certainly did not teach long circuits at Cranfield. For 22, I was taught to turn base at what must be 2nm, well inside the electricity pylons. The white house with the red roof at the edge of the little wood was the ideal spot.

Can't speak for the trainee airline pilots at CCAT.

And from memory, the Avgas engined Katana is 5 kts slower round the circuit than an AA5 - so 65 kts on final, but I am open to correction. No idea as to the performance of the new diesels.

AD

I think I'll stick to the advice of the CAA inspector in my teaching, thanks all the same, and keep the circuits tight where possible.

You clearly don't fly with a great variety of people if you think that no-one will be flying near an ATZ without contacting the airfield, and a posthumous accusation of bad airmanship is not going to do you much good. Your good airmanship of staying, where possible, in the ATZ for circuits will!

Certainly 4½ nm from the airfield is outside the bounds where people can be expected to be complying with the circuit pattern unless within controlled airspace. I would happily pass this distance from a small airfield like Cranfield.

The answer to the question is CCAT (well my instructer anyway) teach the turn from downwind to bace should be made when the aim point for the active runway is percieved to be 45 degrees past the wingtip, which is about at the little white house if 22 is in use. However it can become very busy at TC with circuit traffic and instrument approach traffic and pilots are often told to "report before turning base" to avoid conflict. This is all very well but at these times the RT is also going to be busy and getting the "ready base" call in can be difficult causing the circuit to become extended. Once this happens to one aircraft it can take some time for it to contract again. Also some of the solo students near the start of there course may only have 10 hours TT and not quite be up to your level of excelence yet. It is a SCHOOL afterall and we all had to learn sometime.

Never got to fly the DA40 so dont know the speeds but the problems and frequent PAN calls resulting in the deployment on a regular basis of our friends in the big red truck can not be put down to the students. The plastic planes have a very complex FADEC system (some might say a little to complex for its own good) and a caution and warning panel. You cant blame the pilots (it's not only solo students in my time at cranfield I saw as many instructors being followed by the fire engine as solo's) when they get a caution or warning if they take it seriously. I know I would it the aircraft told me that both the little chips controlling the engine were on the fritz. Remember its only a couple of weeks ago that one of these "new" aircraft crashed after the engine stoped in flight.

Just one thing.
Is it not a bit foolish to cut inside someone in a circuit if you cant see them and dont know where they are. I am not saying that you should go on blindly flying downwind but if you did not have visual contact how did you know he may not have already turned ahead of you and you may be causing a more serious conflict. Would it not have been better to ask ATC for his location, if he was way out of position I am sure ATC would have given you a clearance to cut in and everybody would know what was going on including the solo who might have learned not to go that far downwind next time. Just a thought.

I've only flown the AvGas DA40, not the AvTur DA40D, but I imagine the speeds are pretty similar. There is a huge variation, however, and from memory (hence subject to a few knots error):

Cruise: 130knots
Circuit: 100knots
Base: 70-80knots (*)
Final: 65-75knots (*)

(*) these speeds are scheduled with weight.

Note that the cruise speed is significantly above the typical Cessna circuit speed (the first stage of flap is available at 108knots, full flap at 89knots), and the 'Star is a heck of a handful to slow down in a hurry. so thinking ahead isn't a "nice to have", it is an absolute necessity. Steaming into the circuit at cruise settings WILL result in a very large circuit as you struggle to get the speed off - plan ahead and it's perfectly possible to fit in with a microlight trundling along downwind at 60 knots. We have very few problems at Redhill fitting the 'Star in with other circuit traffic, and I believe this is largely because the instructors make the point well during the conversion training that you MUST fly the circuit at significantly reduced power settings, and that to slow down at all you have to start thinking early.

Now, admittedly the DA40D does have a hugely different engine management technique to the DA40 I'm used to, so the figures may be slightly different, but as the airframe is basically the same, I'd be surprised if there are huge changes.

Having been flying one of the early DA40's for two years, and having got used to the planes reluctance to slow down, it's a lovely aeroplane. Whether I'd really recommend it for ab initio training, well, let's just say I have my doubts. It's a lot of aeroplane, and even when I first started flying it (100 hours) it was almost too much for me to handle. First solo in a Star? My personal advice - as a plain PPL/IMC (no FI or CPL) - stick to the Katana.

Cheers,

MD.

How many Cabair / general EGTC guys have we got on here at the moment?!

Yeah have to agree though, Cabair do conduct very long, sometimes very annoying approaches in the circuit - sure maybe they are going to be flying big jets one day but a DA40 isn't one so why do it! Cranfield is a busy place though, you have to be prepared for most things. Flying the Bulldog and doing straight in approaches and avoiding the circuit is better though...

ATC lot do a great job....


CP

TC ATCOs
 

Hear hear! Any controller who can include the phrase 'that's as much use as a chocolate teapot' in a response will get my vote every time.

TC ATC:

Reminds me of the time there I heard on the radio 'Starship cessna to the federation', only to hear the reply 'Bonus 71 you are cleared to join downwind ....' from the girl in the tower.
She didnt even pause either

'Bonus 71', the sole of Cranfield! What a character! :ok:

'Bonus 71'

This wouldn't be a character with the initials DC would it?

C-I-M

'Bonus 71'

I think that callsign is now assigned to another Cranfield 'character' with initials RR. :)