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-   -   Why is SIM time useless in terms of recency ? (https://www.pprune.org/flying-instructors-examiners/639958-why-sim-time-useless-terms-recency.html)

nickler 18th Apr 2021 14:27

Why is SIM time useless in terms of recency ?
 
Hey folks,

active EASA TRI/TRE here.

In late 2019 I quit my job as a captain in the Middle East to join a LCC gig in Europe which eventually got canceled because of covid. I haven’t been flying the line for almost 1 year and a half but been actively working as a TRI/TRE in the sim and still are, helping fellow pilots to renew their ratings.
I got recently turned down an application as I didn’t have a flight within the last 12 months even though I have spent hours and hours in the sim renewing people’s Licences... what the hell is wrong in our industry ? Are we seriously still considering in 2021 that acting as a TRI/TRE in the sim is less important than flying the machine itself ? Do airlines seriously prefer to invite for assessments people that could have potentially flying like cowboys in their previous operators but with “a flight in the past 12 months” rather than somebody who spends dozen of hours in a training environment ? And same goes for the trainees... I’d rather assess somebody who’s been in the sim doing LOFTS as he/she doesn’t have a job. Sorry for the rant hope you can shed some lights. Cheers.

FlightDetent 18th Apr 2021 15:44

You are well familiar how the airlines selected and treated the redundancies. In particular the stories from around the sandbox shared here are shocking, but most likely not that obscenely worse compared to what has happend elsewhere too.

I smell incompetence and arrogance with a bit of bullying to cover anxiety among peers and in front the higher-ups, not wrongful intent per se. In that case, the hiring process actully cannot be any different.

Wish you will soon find an employer who can see it your way. There are places, however, where out of recency for more than 12 months becomes a serious and costly headache. As long as the operator has a choice of who to pick, don't blame them.

(After all, the smart, tactful and intelligent people went to become pilots anyway, right?)

nickler 18th Apr 2021 17:04


Originally Posted by FlightDetent (Post 11030267)
You are well familiar how the airlines selected and treated the redundancies. In particular the stories from around the sandbox shared here are shocking, but most likely not that obscenely worse compared to what has happend elsewhere too.

I smell incompetence and arrogance with a bit of bullying to cover anxiety among peers and in front the higher-ups, not wrongful intent per se. In that case, the hiring process actully cannot be any different.

Wish you will soon find an employer who can see it your way. There are places, however, where out of recency for more than 12 months becomes a serious and costly headache. As long as the operator has a choice of who to pick, don't blame them.

(After all, the smart, tactful and intelligent people went to become pilots anyway, right?)

Well the employer doesn’t have to see it “my way”, it just doesn’t make sense to have a 12 months recency criteria and not considering sim activity. I can understand if somebody’s left the industry for quite some time to do something else, but if a pilot is actively engaged in sim training and checking its just plain ridiculous. It’s up to us in the industry to change this kind of mentality. Sooner rather than later many of us will have no flights in 12 months, so only those with a job and fly the line will have the chance to apply for any vacancy... total madness.

Sleeve Wing 18th Apr 2021 17:09

See you're only 45, Nickler, so your predicament is tough especially within the present C19 situation.
I'm sure we all appreciate your sentiments about present employment too. Your qualifications make sense to everybody apart from some suits who unfortunately are still as dumb with regard to experience as they ever were; only interested in the RULES as opposed to commonsense.
What is worse however is that some of these suits were once "US", line pilots who made it into management, were only interested in climbing the ladder and weren't necessarily that good when they were flying the line. So I'm sure we can sympathise with your feeling of disappointment and betrayal.
However, there are out there some companies with good middle management/training staff who will acknowledge your experience, value your expertise and find a way to put it to good use.
So, be assured that, with the way the airline business is turning out in the twenties, there is still a need for good solid training and refam., constructive testing and sound assessment of the new breed, maybe of the old-fashioned, 80s/90s sort. This could actually save the industry from destroying itself !
Someone will need you. Good luck.

FlightDetent 18th Apr 2021 17:19

Lost in the translation. You should hope for a better job where the qualifiactions and experience you have will be properly credited. No sarcasm involved.

When standing in the line for a shopfloor, simple stack-shelf pilot job, do not be suprprised though when the company gives preference to those who are 4000 euros less expensive to enlist - as long as there are such people available. TRE's are not the easiest to lock-in, the word overqualified comes to mind.

Chesty Morgan 18th Apr 2021 17:20


Originally Posted by nickler (Post 11030245)
Are we seriously still considering in 2021 that acting as a TRI/TRE in the sim is less important than flying the machine itself ? Do airlines seriously prefer to invite for assessments people that could have potentially flying like cowboys in their previous operators but with “a flight in the past 12 months” rather than somebody who spends dozen of hours in a training environment ? And same goes for the trainees... I’d rather assess somebody who’s been in the sim doing LOFTS as he/she doesn’t have a job. Sorry for the rant hope you can shed some lights. Cheers.

Yes I would hope so. Sitting in the back of a box pressing buttons and watching someone else perform is no replacement for actually flying an aeroplane.

Let's consider also that the vast majority of us aren't "cowboys" and are pretty good at doing what we do.

nickler 18th Apr 2021 17:22


Originally Posted by Sleeve Wing (Post 11030305)
See you're only 45, Nickler, so your predicament is tough especially within the present C19 situation.
I'm sure we all appreciate your sentiments about present employment too. Your qualifications make sense to everybody apart from some suits who unfortunately are still as dumb with regard to experience as they ever were; only interested in the RULES as opposed to commonsense.
What is worse however is that some of these suits were once "US", line pilots who made it into management, were only interested in climbing the ladder and weren't necessarily that good when they were flying the line. So I'm sure we can sympathise with your feeling of disappointment and betrayal.
However, there are out there some companies with good middle management/training staff who will acknowledge your experience, value your expertise and find a way to put it to good use.
So, be assured that, with the way the airline business is turning out in the twenties, there is still a need for good solid training and refam., constructive testing and sound assessment of the new breed, maybe of the old-fashioned, 80s/90s sort. This could actually save the industry from destroying itself !
Someone will need you. Good luck.

Thank You very much Sleeve, appreciate your kind words.
Rule-wise (FCL 060) one can have 3 TO/LDG in the sim, so we can all be easily “recent”. I believe the 12 month rule is more of an insurance related thing.

nickler 18th Apr 2021 17:23


Originally Posted by Chesty Morgan (Post 11030309)
Yes I would hope so. Sitting in the back of a box pressing buttons and watching someone else perform is no replacement for actually flying an aeroplane.

Let's consider also that the vast majority of us aren't "cowboys" and are pretty good at doing what we do.

This comment shows You are not a trainer and have no idea what a trainer does :)
By the way buddy, my last flight wasn’t 20 years ago, it was end of 2019 as a 380 captain in EK, where I have spent close to 20 years. I did resign to join a relatively big european LCC on the A320 and be based not far from home. You know what happened next.

Chesty Morgan 18th Apr 2021 17:39


Originally Posted by nickler (Post 11030312)
This comment shows You are not a trainer and have no idea what a trainer does :)
By the way buddy, my last flight wasn’t 20 years ago, it was end of 2019 as a 380 captain in EK, where I have spent close to 20 years. I did resign to join a relatively big european LCC on the A320 and be based not far from home. You know what happened next.

On the contrary I am more than aware. Although you are part correct, I am not a trainer...anymore.

You come across as one of those self-important trainers who thinks they should just walk in to a job "because they're a trainer". You're no better or worse than the rest of us...but probably more rusty. My last flight was 7 days ago if we're comparing importance.

nickler 18th Apr 2021 17:52


Originally Posted by Chesty Morgan (Post 11030320)
On the contrary I am more than aware. Although you are part correct, I am not a trainer...anymore.

You come across as one of those self-important trainers who thinks they should just walk in to a job "because they're a trainer". You're no better or worse than the rest of us...but probably more rusty. My last flight was 7 days ago if we're comparing importance.

Nope, I’m just somebody who’s claiming that it makes no sense to have a 12 months last fight rule provided you have some relevant experience, I.e. you haven’t spent the past 12 months selling ice creams. Rusty ? Could be, I was in the sim yesterday conducting an LPC. Once debriefing was finished I squeezed in an hour for myself on engine out work and raw data. Actually I manage to do that 3/4 times a month to stay sharp. I bet you do the same on the line.

hueyracer 18th Apr 2021 18:53

A Sim is a Sim, and the real thing is the real thing.

It's not the same.
If it were, we could train young pilots in the Sim, call them Captains and release them to the line.

I am a TRE myself, but in the helicopter world.

The Sim is much different from the real helicopter.

Plus a TRE does not get any "flying time" - if you grab the controls as an examiner, it means the check pilot failed...

So you cold only claim your instructor time.. But then again:
Instructing is not flying time.
It means you are spending hours talking to somebody how to do it, instead of doing it all yourself over and over again.


Ask yourself:
Who would you hire:

A pilot with a fresh line check who just stepped from an aircraft?

Or someone who claims to be a TRE, but hasn't flown in almost 2 years?


nickler 18th Apr 2021 20:28


Originally Posted by hueyracer (Post 11030349)
A Sim is a Sim, and the real thing is the real thing.

It's not the same.
If it were, we could train young pilots in the Sim, call them Captains and release them to the line.

I am a TRE myself, but in the helicopter world.

The Sim is much different from the real helicopter.

Plus a TRE does not get any "flying time" - if you grab the controls as an examiner, it means the check pilot failed...

So you cold only claim your instructor time.. But then again:
Instructing is not flying time.
It means you are spending hours talking to somebody how to do it, instead of doing it all yourself over and over again.


Ask yourself:
Who would you hire:

A pilot with a fresh line check who just stepped from an aircraft?

Or someone who claims to be a TRE, but hasn't flown in almost 2 years?

Don’t know much about the heli world, but in commercial airline ops the sim is used extensively. Commercial airline type ratings involve zero flying hours and in some cases base training can also be done in the sim. MPL programs are exclusively based on loads of hours in the sim with a limited amount of airplane flight time. You can renew your 3 TO and LDGS in 90 days in the sim as well.

Having said that we are pilots and we are meant to be flying up in the air, no question about that. To date I have logged approximately 16500 hours of which about 11000 as PIC, all on widebody. I do fly general aviation in my free time. So yes, I have been spending some time away from the ground and know the added values of real flying vs sim time. And that’s why I can comfortably say that the “last flight within 12 months” is completely useless ; somebody could have been grounded for years, flown for a few weeks, and meet the criteria... whereas you can have highly qualified professionals who have spent 20+ years in the air and have lost their jobs because of bankruptcies, covid, medical, whatever and they become automatically disqualified from applying anywhere because of a stupid and useless rule designed by some HR with no clue about the flying job. You ask me who I would hire ? The answer is pretty simple : whoever gets through the assessment. Would I call myself or anyone else in my position for an interview ? Definitely. I haven’t stoped flying commercially to open up a restaurant but because of the pandemic, and as a freelance trainer/examiner I need to be in the books all the time. So I guess I’d give myself and whoever is in my position a chance to be checked on what sort of terrible professionals we must have become after a “stop” of 18 months over a 24 years long career ;-)

Big Neil 18th Apr 2021 21:20

I think when the industry eventually picks up in a big way, airlines will be forced to alter their arbitrary recency requirements.

Rather than minimum X hours in the previous 12 months...

I think(hope) any sensible airline will change it to minimum X hours between March 2019 and February 2020, or the previous 12 months, whichever is greater.

Totally get your frustration in the meantime.

.

nickler 18th Apr 2021 21:50


Originally Posted by Big Neil (Post 11030387)
I think when the industry eventually picks up in a big way, airlines will be forced to alter their arbitrary recency requirements.

Rather than minimum X hours in the previous 12 months...

I think(hope) any sensible airline will change it to minimum X hours between March 2019 and February 2020, or the previous 12 months, whichever is greater.

Totally get your frustration in the meantime.

.

I totally agree, in the end it’s all about supply and demand ; we know that in times of pilot shortage airlines tend to be veeery loose with their requirements and that’s another funny thing. The same operator shifts over time from recruiting astronauts straight out of the Soyuz to people with a few hundred hours of bush flying depending upon how many deliveries they are getting every month.
Anyhow fingers crossed for all of those who have been hit by this effin’ mess and are grounded despite being good professionals.
cheers.


FlightDetent 19th Apr 2021 03:24

Do you teach students the vital skill of objective self-evaluation? How to check if at all we were doing the right thing, exactly in those moments when we are convinced to the bone we are excelling and saving the day?

nickler 19th Apr 2021 05:06


Originally Posted by FlightDetent (Post 11030443)
Do you teach students the vital skill of objective self-evaluation? How to check if at all we were doing the right thing, exactly in those moments when we are convinced to the bone we are excelling and saving the day?

Didn’t get your question. Try to rephrase it differently perhaps ?

TukwillaFlyboy 19th Apr 2021 05:49

Because line flying is a completely different animal.
I have known several excellent sim. Instructors who spent too much time in the sim. and were hard work on the line.
You are never going to get credit for third seat in the sim. time.
Simples.

deja vu 19th Apr 2021 07:42

Covid is a bastard. But Nickler you chose to leave EK, you got a job, albeit not the one you want right now. Spare a thought for the hundreds/ thousands with nothing. Cathay Dragon pilots for example didn't chose to leave their 20 year gig. I once worked for an airline whose greatest concern for recruitment was not recency but gender, go figure that.

nickler 19th Apr 2021 08:16


Originally Posted by deja vu (Post 11030496)
Covid is a bastard. But Nickler you chose to leave EK, you got a job, albeit not the one you want right now. Spare a thought for the hundreds/ thousands with nothing. Cathay Dragon pilots for example didn't chose to leave their 20 year gig. I once worked for an airline whose greatest concern for recruitment was not recency but gender, go figure that.

Well I did resign from EK but when I did I had already signed another contract which got eventually postponed and then cancelled. I technically don't have a job, I charge nothing when I conduct revalidations and renewals as I try to help other fellow EASA holder pilots that have been made redundant on A320 and A330 fleets. All my rant is about asking a "last flight" within 12 months which technically doesn't mean anything. My acquaintances working for some huge European LCCs have averaged one flight/month over the past 12 months and those are the lucky ones. Others have flown once or twice because of base downsize/closure.

hueyracer 19th Apr 2021 18:51

Not arguing with you on the idiocy of certain "EASA-rules"......i have my thoughts on them, and they are definitely not working "pro" aviation.

Especially on the helicopter side, EASA rules and regulations are killing and kicking companies out of business like there is no tomorrow-only because the majority of people now working there are people who were rejected by the same companies before...

While the FAA has the motto "Everything that we haven´t forbidden is allowed", EASA thinks that "Everything we have not specifically approved in writing is prohibited"....



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