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-   -   Instructing & high winds (https://www.pprune.org/flying-instructors-examiners/626490-instructing-high-winds.html)

covec 19th Oct 2019 23:55

Instructing & high winds
 
Hello folks.

I binned some instructing in a C152 t'other day.

Runway in use 05. Winds 020 17G27 with mod low level turb. circa 500ft.

XW therefore is 11kts: appreciate that.

I think HoT pi55ed off.

Do I need to grow some? 🤔🤣

djpil 20th Oct 2019 01:15

Quite a few considerations but I wouldn't criticise anyone for making that decision however I would criticise that HoT who is perhaps influenced too much by an accountant.

Would the student have got any benefit from the lesson?

I see some instructors here who take aeroplanes out in conditions like that and I wonder if the only reason might be that they don't get paid if they don't fly.

Foxbats are common trainers here (I haven't flown one ) and I see that the POH for the A-22LS states the crosswind as a limit (rather than the usual "maximum demonstrated") of 14 kts yet on their website https://www.foxbat.com.au/a22ls_dimensions_performance it has this statement: "Novice/expert crosswind limit 11/22 kts". Interesting interpretation and perhaps useful guidance for instructors.

Some flight schools get reputations for not treating their students well - they get that reputation for a reason.

I have quite a few hours in the 150 with a max demonstrated crosswind of 15 kts and I see that for the 152 I used to fly it is only 12 kts. I usually fly a Decathlon these days and I encourage new instructors to be conservative with the wind conditions. My HoT has never disagreed with me. For experienced instructors I generally refer to winds like that (17G27) as not pleasant, hard work, and depending on the lesson the student probably won't benefit from it. If those last two digits start with a 3 my advice is to leave the Decathlon in the hangar.

covec 20th Oct 2019 01:33

Thank you djpil.

My location is N Scotland. In mountain lee the turbulence can be really bad. Surprised at the turbulence from a NE’ly off the N Sea...

B2N2 20th Oct 2019 01:46

Depends.
What stage of training is the student in?
”Altitude” maneuvers ?
There is nothing wrong with saying that the landing would be a demonstration only to make it clear why the student would not be authorized to solo under those conditions.
Was the planned lessons on landings? Then no don’t go unless the student is close to exam flight.
A student needs to be safely exposed to conditions that are potentially dangerous to a newly minted pilot.

covec 20th Oct 2019 02:29

Hi B2N2. About 8 hours from finishing PPL but had not flown in 6 months. Previous FI advised that student’s flying suffered in anything “more than a breeze”.

Cloudbase varied Bkn to Few 1200ft to occasional CAVOK (with those winds). Icing at 2000ft. Vis occasionally 6000m rain but generally 10K +.

MSAs here are around 3800ft min.

MrAverage 20th Oct 2019 09:53

Covec!

You'd be very welcome at our Club.

Whopity 20th Oct 2019 11:30

As the instructor, you make the decision. Never do anything that you are not happy with. What is the purpose of the exercise, is it acheivable in the circumstances? If your student has an issue with "more than a breeze" maybe a demonstration to show what can be done, but there is little point trying to teach him in extreme condiions. I have shown a student what a 40 kt wind in the circuit looks like and that a C152 can be landed with a 27 Kt crosswind, I would not have expected the student to do either and it could be a demonstration of decision making and why no to do it.

blind pew 20th Oct 2019 17:17

Glider down at beachy head thread
 
2019005-BGA-Accident-Investigation-Report-22-Feb-19-Duo-Discus-G-CJUM.pdf
accident report well worth reading wrt peer pressure

Big Pistons Forever 20th Oct 2019 19:26


Originally Posted by djpil (Post 10598752)

Would the student have got any benefit from the lesson?

.

This in my opinion, is the crux of the matter. Given your description of the student, I would suggest you made the right call. If management has a problem you need to politely but firmly make clear you are exercising your sole discretion as the air craft commander, full stop.

A couple of related thoughts.

1) I have seen instructors particularly junior instructors, sometimes bin a flight without thinking of alternatives. Days like you describe can be nasty down low but smooth at altitude, so perhaps there is an option to work on other parts of the PPL course. A short out and back nav exercise on a really windy day can be an excellent learning experience for instance and you can demo the landing. Good for your skills maintenance and good for the student to see without the pressure to perform.

2) If a student can't manage in a safe but not necessarily elegant manner, a near max demonstrated cross wind takeoff and landing they IMO are not ready for the flight test

3) Wind is OK, bumps are OK, wind and bumps are more problematical, however they can be a good way show an over confident student their limitations....

rarelyathome 21st Oct 2019 00:55

Of course it’s your call, but the max demonstrated is for an average pilot. You should be comfortable demonstrating up to that figure. If your student has had issues with x winds, why not take advantage of the conditions to teach the correct technique? If it’s you that’s not confident however....

B2N2 21st Oct 2019 02:51

You can’t dunk a student in the deep end and expect them to perform to standards.
In the end it’s better to be on the ground wondering if you should have gone up then being in the air wondering if you should have stayed in the clubhouse.

BillieBob 21st Oct 2019 09:17


....the max demonstrated is for an average pilot
Where does it say that? CS23 merely requires that, "A 90° cross-component of wind velocity, demonstrated to be safe for taxying, take-off and landing must be established and must be not less than 0.2 VS0". It says nothing about the ability of the pilot.

djpil 21st Oct 2019 12:32

I can’t remember the para # but it depends on the certification basis for the type. CAR 3 preceded FAR 23 and it simply specified that exceptional skill was not required. Early versions of FAR 23 were the same. Later versions stated “The landing may not require more than average piloting skill". I assume those requirements applied to crosswind operations too but I don’t recall.
I haven’t bothered to check for the C152 but I wonder if that explains the lower xwind figure than the C150.

pulse1 21st Oct 2019 12:33


why not take advantage of the conditions to teach the correct technique?
Having restored my long defunct PPL in a Cessna 152 I was struggling to get checked out in a PA28. One day the wind was quite strong and the instructor said that it he couldn't check me out in these conditions but I could have a lesson if I liked. Thinking it would be good experience I went ahead and we did a couple of circuits with safe but untidy landings and then he called it a day. As we taxied in I asked how I had done and, to my absolute amazement, he said he would sign me off. I think that he left the school shortly after that.

pitotheat 22nd Oct 2019 11:59

Covec your decision was entirely justifiable. As others have said it depends on what stage of training the student is at and what they could reasonably get out of a lesson in such conditions. Something else to consider is in the event of you becoming incapacitated what are the chances of your student being able to get you on the ground safely?

BigEndBob 22nd Oct 2019 22:10


Originally Posted by pitotheat (Post 10600560)
Covec your decision was entirely justifiable. As others have said it depends on what stage of training the student is at and what they could reasonably get out of a lesson in such conditions. Something else to consider is in the event of you becoming incapacitated what are the chances of your student being able to get you on the ground safely?

Incapacitation, you would never do any trial flights if that was a consideration.

pitotheat 23rd Oct 2019 15:51

BEB It’s all about mitigating threats. In the case of incapacitation the risks are different dependent upon the circumstances and have to be accepted for a trial flight verses a lesson with a student who having completed part of their course could get you back on the ground in benign conditions. Shouldn’t we be looking constantly at widening our options if possible rather than narrowing them?

BigEndBob 23rd Oct 2019 23:36


Originally Posted by pitotheat (Post 10601548)
BEB It’s all about mitigating threats. In the case of incapacitation the risks are different dependent upon the circumstances and have to be accepted for a trial flight verses a lesson with a student who having completed part of their course could get you back on the ground in benign conditions. Shouldn’t we be looking constantly at widening our options if possible rather than narrowing them?

Perhaps a trial flight should start with circuit and landing then, before local area.

pitotheat 24th Oct 2019 08:48

BEB You are displaying commendable levels of maturity and reasoning.
I presume you run a school and far more concerned about profit than the safety of your customers and staff and whether the customer is likely to learn anything valuable from their lesson is immaterial.

BigEndBob 24th Oct 2019 09:41


Originally Posted by pitotheat (Post 10602126)
BEB You are displaying commendable levels of maturity and reasoning.
I presume you run a school and far more concerned about profit than the safety of your customers and staff and whether the customer is likely to learn anything valuable from their lesson is immaterial.

You cannot say that as you have no idea what our ethics are.
30 years as a flying instructor and 40 years flying has taught me a lot, about people and aviation.


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