IFR time
Hi All,
How would you log IFR times? off block to on block, or just airborne time. Having an argument with my line trainer := Thanks |
From Part-FCL Definitions:
"Flight time under Instrument Flight Rules" (IFR) means all flight time during which the aircraft is being operated under the Instrument Flight Rules. "Flight time": for aeroplanes, touring motor gliders and powered-lift, it means the total time from the moment an aircraft first moves for the purpose of taking off until the moment it finally comes to rest at the end of the flight; Not to be confused with Instrument Flight Time, which I believe is only used under EASA for the purposes of granting a licence or rating (e.g. logged as part of an IR course). "Instrument flight time" means the time during which a pilot is controlling an aircraft in flight solely by reference to instruments. |
The EASA requirements for an IR refer to Instrument time under instruction, which implies you would only log Instrument Flight Time or Instrument Ground time on a training course. For all other experience requirements you log time under IFR (chock to chock).
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We use to substract 10 minutes of the block time.
If the flight lasts 2:30, we put 2:20 IFR on the logbook. for our school.... |
I'm not sure how legit this is, but nobody's ever contradicted me.
If an entire flight is IFR, I log the entire flight as IFR. If (say) I fly the departure and arrival VFR and the route IFR, I make a rough note of the start and end times of the IFR period, and log that time in a column in my logbook as IFR. Similarly "sole reference to instruments" which personally I choose to log separately, but is of course much more clearcut. All time by sole reference I take as IFR, but obviously some IFR time can be VMC. G |
I'm not sure how legit this is, but nobody's ever contradicted me. (d) information about any special conditions under which the flight was conducted, including night flying and instrument flying; |
Thanks for your input. We are still puzzling whether you can log it off to on chocks. When I did my training from integrated school it was off to on chocks. Now my line trainer says it's wrong! Saying how can you taxi prior to takeoff is ifr time, its Vfr. I argued that when you set up the navaids it's part of ifr. Anyway, I think this is a grey area that nobody knows the definite answer to it.
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If your flight plan is filed under IFR then anytime between off block to on block you are operating under IFR, even thou you are flying and taxiing under VMC. Seems like your trainer mixed up the concept of IFR with IMC |
This came up at an EASA meeting some years ago. The decision was that, if a flight is conducted under IFR, then the time from chocks-to-chocks is all IFR flight time.
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Originally Posted by n.dave
(Post 10196126)
Now my line trainer says ....
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Originally Posted by Whopity
(Post 10196040)
Its your logbook you can do what you like. There is no requirement to log IFR so who cares. The ANO only requires that you log Which most would regard as Actual IF, All IFR time can be in VMC as IFR has nothing whatsoever to do with the weather.
(5) Operational conditions, namely if the operation takes place at night, or is conducted under instrument flight rules. And of course you need a record of IFR time for some purposes - gaining an IRI for example. |
Originally Posted by AB335
(Post 10196148)
If your flight plan is filed under IFR then anytime between off block to on block you are operating under IFR, even thou you are flying and taxiing under VMC. Seems like your trainer mixed up the concept of IFR with IMC Do an IMC training detail from a small airfieldwith no FPL and it's time under the goggles/hood, or time in IMC if you encounter it en-route. |
i thought there was a requirement to log IFR time under EASA part FCL:- |
Originally Posted by BillieBob
(Post 10206606)
Nope, that's just an example of a personal logbook provided in the AMC. The regulation (FCL.050) simply says, "The pilot shall keep a record of the details of all flights flown in a form and manner established by the competent authority". In the case of the UK, that is in accordance with Article 228 of the ANO.
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How do you demonstrate your IFR time if you have not logged it? |
As the requirement has no real meaning in safety terms Time recorded in the column headed "Ground Training" will be that time which is spent in "Link Trainers or other approved ground training devices for instrument flying . "At the controls" was deemed to be manual flying. Monitoring an autopilot (assuming one was fitted) while in cloud, was never a consideration since there was no specific skill involved. Pre-war RAF log books were similar, except under the heading "Instrument/Cloud" there were two columns. One was called Dual and the other called Pilot. In both examples (civilian or military), the proviso being instrument flying was required to be manually flown to be legally logged. Instrument flying on automatic pilot was not counted for purposes of logging instrument time. That was understandable, since the original purpose of including instrument flight time in a log book was meant to be a measure of physical piloting skill on instruments. Over the years, State regulators have gone away from the original concept of logging of instrument flying (which was in cloud experience manually flown) and thus worth something in terms of survivability, to a watering down of the original stringent rules. Logging of time on automatic pilot is an example of this. The situation is laughable nowadays where some States even authorise logging of any IFR flight plan and that includes taxiing! All time by sole reference I take as IFR, but obviously some IFR time can be VMC. |
The situation is laughable nowadays where some States even authorise logging of any IFR flight plan and that includes taxiing! |
As most simulator instructors will attest, thousands of hours monitoring an autopilot mean very little in terms of equivalent manual instrument flying skills,. G |
But, as one day I might like to teach instrument flying, I need the first as well even if the second is a far more honest |
Several columns in my logbook count for nothing in licencing terms, but mean something to me - hence I record them.
CAA, FAA and EASA so far as I know don't care how many hundreds of hours tailwheel I have either - but I elect to record it. That is the privilege of it being a personal record. G |
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