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-   -   Logging landing during instruction (https://www.pprune.org/flying-instructors-examiners/606167-logging-landing-during-instruction.html)

slr737 5th Mar 2018 12:58

Logging landing during instruction
 
A Brand new FI has asked me a good question. I have never come across that issue as I also fly SEP and MEP myself so I can log landing when I fly myself.

Can a FI log the landing made by his student either in SEP or MEP. If he cannot then he cannot prove that he made 3 landings in 90 days.
Majority of FI, they only fly during instruction and rarely fly themselves so are not landing the aircraft.

EASA FCL.050 is not very clear on that.

thanks

Whopity 5th Mar 2018 15:12


EASA FCL.050 is not very clear on that.
FCL.050 is perfectly clear

FCL.050 Recording of flight time The pilot shall keep a reliable record of the details of all flights flown in a form and manner established by the competent authority.
In the UK this is Article 228 of the ANO, which has no requirement to log any take-offs or landings at all!

FCL060 specifies the recency requirement:

A pilot shall not operate an aircraft in commercial air transport or carrying passengers:
(1) as PIC or co-pilot unless he/she has carried out, in the preceding 90 days, at least 3 takeoffs,approaches and landings in an aircraft of the same type or class or an FFS representing that type or class.
So if he/she, the pilot has not flown them themself, they are not current.

Majority of FI, they only fly during instruction and rarely fly themselves so are not landing the aircraft.
You mean they go for 90 days as an Instructor and never demonstrate anything, sounds like poor instruction to me.

Duchess_Driver 5th Mar 2018 16:03

Quite often I'll 'nick' aircraft after the student training detail is complete and 'land or touch and go' to ensure I do meet the 3-in-90 rule - more so in the multi as I get enough SEP stuff

Stampe 5th Mar 2018 17:00

I think the question is there a requirement to be “the sole manipulator of the controls” for 3 landings in 90 days.Many instructors doing only advanced instruction and examiners could easily fal foul of this one.I,ve seen it written in the past not sure if it’s still in force in today’s mishmash of regulations.I,m lucky I own my own aircraft in addition to instructing!Regards Stampe

Genghis the Engineer 5th Mar 2018 17:12

Personally I keep a tally of take-offs and landings on my PLOG and logbook, and find that if I'm doing much instructing I invariably end up demonstrating a few circuits in the course of the month, so it's little issue.

And if I'm not instructing, I'll usually be doing a bit of private flying and will often ensure an approach or a couple of circuits on the end of a sortie - but I appreciate that is an expensive luxury on the salaries many full time instructors earn.

That said it certainly can be an issue, particularly if you are mostly instructing existing qualified pilots, that you don't get much hands-on time. It hardly seems appropriate to log take-odds and landings where your student handled the controls.

G

Whopity 5th Mar 2018 18:36


I think the question is there a requirement to be “the sole manipulator of the controls”
That was the statement under JAR but if the student had conducted the takeoffs and landings then the instructor would not have carried them out. The fact he/she was PIC is irrelevant. In the case of instructor and student is there a passenger on board?

slr737 5th Mar 2018 21:54


Originally Posted by Whopity (Post 10073525)
You mean they go for 90 days as an Instructor and never demonstrate anything, sounds like poor instruction to me.

some instructor might only teach IFR, or advanced PPL course, where demonstrating a take off or landing is not part of the course. If you are on a MEP course, you do not demonstrate landing or take off either.

Demonstrating take off and landing will only be part of the initial PPL training.

Now, "stealing" one circuit once in a while might be ok, but what about on a Seneca where the rental price is not the same as C152..

MrAverage 6th Mar 2018 08:21

If an instructor is carrying out dual instruction (and is therefore PIC) with a PPL or with a student - providing there is no one else on board - he is not flying with passengers.

In theory, that instructor could be way past 90 days and still be legal. Doesn't make it right of course.

Dead easy, at the end of a training session, to say; "Let me show you a slightly different landing technique." Or; "Do you mind if I do this landing?"

I've never been refused.........yet.

Genghis the Engineer 6th Mar 2018 10:51


Originally Posted by slr737 (Post 10073963)
.

Now, "stealing" one circuit once in a while might be ok, but what about on a Seneca where the rental price is not the same as C152..

THere will always be some people for whom the cost of a circuit in a C152 is more more expensive than the cost to somebody else of a circuit in a Seneca. This probably includes most flying instructors given that it's hardly the best paid job in the world.

That said, it's hardly unusual that an instructor has reason to demonstrate and patter a "gold standard" circuit for their student's benefit is it? There is no need to steal a circuit, simply to construct the lesson so that it's done in a particular way from which everybody benefits.

G

Whopity 6th Mar 2018 11:01


If an instructor is carrying out dual instruction (and is therefore PIC) with a PPL or with a student - providing there is no one else on board - he is not flying with passengers.

In theory, that instructor could be way past 90 days and still be legal. Doesn't make it right of course.
Now look at the Instructor requirements to teach the Night Rating

(e) the night rating, provided that the FI:
(1) is qualified to fly at night in the appropriate aircraft category;
(2) has demonstrated the ability to instruct at night to an FI qualified in accordance with (i)
below; and
(3) complies with the night experience requirement of FCL.060(b)(2);
So to teach the Night Rating with no passengers on board the FI must be 90 day current.

No doubt unintentional; a typical case of poor drafting and even poorer checking.

B2N2 6th Mar 2018 12:58

I’m pretty sure you do t let a SEP student land without having demonstrated multiple times and I’m pretty damn sure you wouldn’t let a MEP student do their first engine out landing without a demonstration.

SEP:
First 3-4 landings demo regardless
Partial flap landings demo
No flap landings demo
Forward slip landings demo
EFATO demo
Low viz or bad weather circuit
Sim eng failure from overhead/circuit
Night landing demo

You’re supposed to teach each one and why they’re different from the other ones.

MEP:
First landing demo and why it’s different from a SEP
Assymetric landing demo
EFATO and SE circuit to landing

Plus all the times you say “my controls” before you head for the weeds.
I’ve never had currency issues and never had to use the students dime.

Genghis the Engineer 6th Mar 2018 13:40

Not many taught EFATOs should, I hope, go immediately on to a loggable landing!

G

tescoapp 6th Mar 2018 15:03


So to teach the Night Rating with no passengers on board the FI must be 90 day current.
Unless they have a SPA-IR I presume?

Whopity 6th Mar 2018 19:07

That is one of the options in FCL.060(b)(2). It does not say if the IR has to be valid on the class!

B2N2 6th Mar 2018 23:47


Originally Posted by Genghis the Engineer (Post 10074639)
Not many taught EFATOs should, I hope, go immediately on to a loggable landing!

G

Simulated engine failure after lift off on a 5000’ runway.

selfin 7th Mar 2018 03:00


Originally Posted by Whopity
In the case of instructor and student is there a passenger on board?

A student must come under the ANO definition for flight crew member rather than passenger which is supported by a non-binding statement made in CAP 1335, p 8:


Originally Posted by CAP 1335
A flight classified as aerial work is normally a flight where some form of payment is made by one of the parties involved in connection with the flight, but does not involve the carriage of passengers. Remunerated flight instruction is probably the most common example of this.


Whopity 7th Mar 2018 09:29


A student must come under the ANO definition for flight crew member rather than passenger
The ANO definition does not apply to EASA aircraft. There is no definition in the Basic Regulation or Part FCL however; there is a definition in Commercial Operations.

Genghis the Engineer 7th Mar 2018 10:31


Originally Posted by B2N2 (Post 10075217)
Simulated engine failure after lift off on a 5000’ runway.

I did say "not many", not "none". :cool:

G

B2N2 8th Mar 2018 12:07


Originally Posted by Genghis the Engineer (Post 10075601)
I did say "not many", not "none". :cool:

G

Point being every demonstration is a landing you could log.
And that’s a large part of what you do as Flight Instructor. Demonstrate.

Jhieminga 8th Mar 2018 13:00

In my view there is a bit of a grey area here. Should I only log the landings where I'm the sole manipulator of the controls? Should I also log the landing if the student did most of it but I grabbed the controls at the last moment to avoid a tailstrike during the bounce? Can I log the landing if I was directly coaching the student through the entire process?

The way I did it when I was instructing for a larger school (SEP/VFR only), I kept track of the total number of landings during a lesson. I then logged this in my logbook, the aircraft journal and had the student log the same number. During one day I would sometimes fly up to five different lessons with between 3 and 11 landings per lesson. Keeping track of who flew during which landing, although possible, became difficult and for logging purposes I just ignored this.

It certainly never led to a situation where I was unable to carry passengers, as there were plenty of demonstrations and other situations where I flew most if not all of the landing. Was I cheating? Perhaps a bit, but passenger carrying is the only thing that this has any influence on. In my logbook, I had plenty of landings to show that I could carry passengers. For myself, I always made sure to be 'in practice' before I carried passengers.

In my view the responsibility still lies with you to make sure that you are capable of carrying out a flight with passengers to the highest possible level of safety. The 3 landings in 90 days bit is just a bit of a legal backstop to prevent pilots with oversize egos to redefine the 'capable' bit in the previous sentence.


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