The Holy Grail?
 

Hiya all,
I'm not sure if this is posted in the right section. I'm looking for the Holy Grail of a course. Can you recommend the best instruction at the best price. I am CPL holder living in Scotland but willing to go wherever for the training.

Thanks in advance
Falz

Falz.

Like most things in life, you get what you pay for. If money is no object, one of the major schools like Oxford has the fleet size and experienced instructor force to give you gold-star training. If you're working to a budget, somewhere smaller gives you the same qualification but you may be fighting with others for the one FI instructor and a limited number of aeroplanes. I suggest you look at the available FTOs, make a shortlist and visit. Chances are if it feels right, it will be right for you. Good luck.

I would personally recommend going for the small, friendly and informal but commited flying club for the FIC. Larger more commercially orientated schools tend to have a conveyor belt mentality and IMHO the FIC requires a different approach than most other flying courses.

FIC's are more about personality and learning how people respond in certain circumstances as much as anything technical so you need to be somewhere you feel comfortable and strutting around in the gold braids and raybans amongst hoardes of budding teenage airline pilots at one of the larger FTO's would completely spoil the ambience of a good FIC!

Find a nice little club, a jolly FIC instructor and enjoy the course.

VFE.

Contact Prestwick flying club. Stuart Hill runs FIC courses from there and is rather good.

I did mine with Kevin Rowell at advanced flight training at Shurburn in elmet. I was very pleased.

Advanced Flight Training

He is also pretty well connected with any job vacancies going as well.

He was also happy to offer me advice even when it wasn't in his best financial interest (but in my best training interest) which I always think is a good sign. And that is why I suggest that anyone considering completing an FIC course should give him a call.

At the risk of repeating myself the Defence Elementary Flying Training Section (DEFTS) at Barkston do a very good course.

They do, but I don't think that they are running any courses at the moment. Speedtwelve can you confirm that?

Tayflite at Perth is now part of Air Charter Scotland, and with the new management I think there will be FIC courses from a very experienced Instructor shortly.

Give them a ring and see when they can do a course.

I did my FIC at Ontrack Aviation at Wellesbourne. Apart from the 300 mile round trip journey to get there, it was excellent. Highly recommended.

Size/Pedigree does matter
 

I'm afraid I completely disagree with Vfe.

Size/ reputation matters. If someone said you had 4As at 'A' Level and you could go to Oxbridge or John O Groats technical college to get a degree it is ostensibly the same question. When you finish you can choose where to work from the big schools to the small clubs but the reverse would probably not be true. I am not saying this is how it should be I am just saying this is how it has panned out in my experience.

You should always get the best facilities, most up to date methods/doctrine and best aircraft possible for anything in aviation be it PPL, or MEIR then you can work at any level less as you never know where you are going to need work in the future.

A small local club is unlikely to turn you down because you went to Oxford. However the big schools will often put you behind others if they feel they trained at somewhere with more pedigree.

There are some centres which are not big schools but would be considered centres of excellence for instructional courses and search for Lady in Red will help you find examples of such. Suggest you want a busy/difficult airfield for FIC if at all possible i.e. Cardiff, Bristol, Bournemouth, Exeter, EMA, Leeds, EDI, etc as this will give you better prep for dealing with all types of instruction then if you go to small or grass airfield you will have the complete set of skills wrt airfields.

There are some definite places to stay away from but you don't live near Luton :rolleyes: Good luck

Shows how much you know.

The most respected FIC instructors in the UK work from the less classy establishments. I won't start naming names but those who know will know who they are. Drawing parrallels with univeristy choice is absurd.

VFE.

All the best FIC are from small operations (except for DEFTS). I'm sure there are good instructors at the big colleges, but for the very best in training. I know where I'd be putting my money if I had to do it again.

When I've looked at FI's c.v's etc seeing who trained them makes a big difference. There are a few names where I always knew the FI would be alright if they'd survived the course with XXXXX or YYYYY. What would be even more telling was seeing who did their test. There are one or two names that guarantee that the newly minted FI is likely to be alright.

Ain't that the truth!

VFE.

It is hopeless advice like this that gives PPRuNe a bad name.

The exact opposite is in fact the reality of the situation here - why on earth you would want ATC butting in every five seconds when you are trying to master FI patter is beyond me. When faced with that situation as the jobbing instructor then it's never an issue, you just shut up and listen... but whilst training for the FI rating? I could think of nothing more that would adversely affect your progress as a budding teacher. The only noise (other than the engine) you want in your earhole is constructive criticism from your FIC instructor.

VFE.

I did my FIC at a school that wasnt based at a big airfield or at a massive commercial school. Size does nt matter as they now have a contract to train FIs for one of the largest commercial schools in europe. Shop around but be quick, we are getting more and more cvs each week for people looking for an FI job. Best of luck with where ever you choose to end up.

Vortex claims to be an ex-armed forces pilot, if so he may be able to ask his former collegues working at Marshalls in Cambridge who they did their civvie FI conversion with ... it sure wasn't OATS.

I am begining to smell another PPRuNe Walter Mitty character...

VFE.

So you might think, but Oxford do not offer FIC courses to the general public, a large FTO is more concerned with training airline pilots than instructors. Large schools usually have the facilities, so that they can train and standardize their own FIs.
I am not aware of any FTO offering FIC that has anything like a conveyor belt mentality. It takes 5-6 weeks minimum to train a FI, it is hard work, one to one, and most FIC instructors are self employed because FTOs cannot afford to employ them; consequently FIC training is a cottage industry lodged within larger organisations.

There are two distinct styles of FIC, one based upon CFS teaching from the 1950s and a smaller number based upon more recent CFS teaching.

An FI may find a particular course to their personal liking but it will be some time before they can actually judge it in a truly objective manner. As you only ever complete one course, you will never have anything to compare it with!

Quite often schools prefer instructors who have been trained by people they know, so it might be a good idea to look at possible locations you could instruct at, and then see if they have any recommendations or, more importantly anywhere they would not accept!

Look outside the UK. Plenty of FTO's abroad offering JAR FIC's...

VFE.

I'm also in a similiar position to the original poster Falz. Recently gained a CPL ,based in Scotland (great timing I know) and I'm also researching the most suitable place to do a FIC. Tayside are not doing courses until August and Tayflite do not appear to have any plans at the moment.

Does anyone have any up to date information on the DEFTS course?
Any other specific recommendations would be appreciated.
Cheers,
CD

VFE, I agree with your initial comment but did not consider you second comment to be relevant in the UK because I cannot think of any UK approved FTO that fits the description.
I was not including non UK approved FIC but I have seen FIs trained in other JAA States where they have clearly not followed the JAA syllabus and the FI test was at best a CPL skill test from the RH seat. The candidate was not required to teach anything! Revalidation in the UK should prove interesting! Such courses may be cheap but hardly fit the description as the Holy Grail of courses!

JAR is a wide field now, why would you not consider me to be discussing anything but approved establishments within the JAR community?

VFE.

When I was employing FI's I used to get as many C.V's from European FI's as I did from Brits, so I think it is very relevant.

Indeed...

It is all about JAR now.

Ennit.

VFE.

Possibly because your first sentence described a typical UK scenario of small friendly clubs with an FIC instructor, something not commonly found in the rest of Europe! But you are right, we have to consider all JAA FIC as the UK accepts anyone with a JAA rating.

I wonder how many have encountered FIs on Spanish JAA licences, who have no Restriction on their FI rating, they are required to administer it themselves!

Regarding 18 Greens & SAS' mention of DEFTS at RAF Barkston Heath, civilian FI courses tend to be available if there's spare capacity alongside the military task.

The training is second-to-none. A meaty variable-pitch 260hp Firefly M that'll do brakes-off to 10000' in under 10 mins. Full inverted systems, +6/-3g, with some pretty gyroscopic aerobatics thrown into the G/H sorties if you so wish. Instructors hold mil A2 or A1 cats, are often ex-CFS examiners, and have a huge amount of experience. It's a disciplined and very punchy environment, but the flying is great fun, demanding yet rewarding.

A wealth of knowledge & war stories in the crewroom as well. Not every flying school has two instructors current on WW2 piston fighters!

Captain Tim Wooltorton is the man to speak to at Barkston, he's the Chief Pilot.

Do it, you won't regret it.

Speed's right. Do it : fab fun and cheap. And the firefly flicks like nothing on earth.

I can think of many things I'd prefer to flick than a firefly, however none are available for an FIC course! If DEFTS are running courses. I'd be there like a shot if I was about to do my FIC again.

Holy grail? I consider myself very luck to have had two of the very best. I finished last year after a year and a half part-time. I had two instructors, and two aeroplanes.

Stuart Hill at Prestwick Flying Club did 60% of my course on the de Havilland Chipmunk. A true professional in every sense of the word - years of experience and a committed light aeroplane man. His course is highly personal, friendly yet professional. Stuart's course is part-time. The Chipmunk is f*&^ing expensive but really makes you think about what you're doing (you can't point/touch from the rear cockpit!) It's also baltic in the back seat during most of the Scottish year.:(

Lovat Fraser at Tayside Aviation did the other 40% - I needed to finish full-time due to pressures in my 'proper' job. Again, a committed light aeroplane man, and again a true professional. Very similar to Stuart but the Tayside course differs in emphasis in places (Stuart does nav, Lovat doesn't), and techniques (the Tayside course uses a checklist, Stuart's very keen that the checklist is in your head!); Stuart uses CSA from low key in PFL's, Tayside closing the throttle on base. Both men are however very open to discussing alternative techniques and methods.

I used the Grob Heron for the final part - a lovely aeroplane, in some respects better than the Tutor. It scores over the Chippie in having a heater too. A superb confidence-builder for spinning as well.

Stuart's busy I know with FIC part-time at the mo but you could try contacting him via the Club. I've heard from Lovat that he's fully-booked until August!

They seem to be your choices in Scotland at the moment - both will deliver nothing other than an outstanding, satisfying and thoroughly enjoyable course. I have to say as a professional engineer who's done BSc, PhD, ATPL's and the CPL - the FIC is easily the hardest yet most satisfying piece of training/education that I've ever, ever done.