Robin R2160
 

I'm looking at an R2160 with the potential to buy.... but want to try one out first - with an aerobatic instructor on board.

Are there any flying schools out there - preferably Southern England - currently operating one, where I could just book a "trial" lesson?

Also - Any aerobatics instructors able to compare and contrast the performance with say... a Bulldog?

Thanks for your help. :ok:

MG

The following should be able to meet all your requirements:
Wellesbourne Aviation : : : The Midlands Premier Flying School
ONTRACK AVIATION LIMITED

Hi MG,
I have a fair amount of instructing on both, after the 'dog you will find the Robin is not too different, ailerons a little heavier, slightly down on performance and generally a less solid feel to it but I think you will enjoy it.:ok:

Thanks Guys...

Whopity... Wellsbourne is a 2 hour drive from where I am.. A bit too far for me for a trial lesson with the vagaries of british winter weather :sad:. I'll try over on private flying to see if someone has one closer to me.

Cheers

MG :)



Edited to change the driving time after discussion with my old man

Robin 2160
 

Beware!

The Robin 2160 is susceptable to severe corrosion of the wing main spar rootes and also the fuselarge stringers and fin. The wing must be detached to inspect the main spar where the corrosion developes.

The NZ company (in receivership) have recently developed an approved wing main spar repair but its an expensive job. Obtaining the fuselarge stringers is not an option as yet.

You would be better looking at a Decathlon.

There is one at Goodwood with Plessey group, (PSFG) sorry I do not have a contact for them handy.

MG,
I think Bodmin (Cornwall Flying Club) still have a 2160i.

Very limited experience on the 'dog and 2160i, my preference would be the 'dog - better control harmonisation and feel, the Robin was a little heavy
and although I didn't spin it, spin recovery as explained by the instructor was/is slightly unconventional but stand to be corrected (as it was a while ago).

Decathlon CS is OK (150hp CS prop) but I'm sure a Super Decathlon would be perfectly acceptable and there's a few around.


7700

Both the Dog and the 2160 are capable aerobatic mounts for basic aeros - neither are going to get you very far in competitions if you want to move up the scale.

Fatigue life in Dogs is a big issue. But as has been mentioned - the 2160 has it's problems too. The big difference will be in operating costs. The Dog has a CS prop and higher fuel consumption.

Both have had spinning issues in the past and both have spin recoveries which are different to what most people will consider the norm, but of course - there is no such thing as a standard spin recovery! (Debate expected!).

I replied to the thread in private flying before seeing this..

Aerobat ours regularly, it's a circa 1 year old NZ built alpha, and my main experience of aeros. Control harmonisation wise, I'd consider the ailerons light to very light in comparison to most regular aircraft. Never flown a bulldog to compare. Rudder is fairly heavy, and elevator also requires a pretty firm pull - I believe it was designed that way to make it more difficult to overstress the airframe.

It's a slightly peculiar landing technique that takes a little acclimatisation due to the extra strake on the underside of the tail - fully held off is not really an option, it's sortof pitch for slightly nose up and plonk!

If you want to do much in the way of aeros, I'd personally consider looking for something with a CS prop and inverted systems - managing the fixed prop is an irritation, though minor, and whilst you may not plan on flying around upside down a lot, it's nice to have the engine continue in more unusual attitudes. Ours tends to quit whilst spinning, and on vertical uplines (e.g. stall turn / hammerhead is flown as a glider) - I assume that to be normal for carburated aircraft, it's rare the prop stops, so the noise resumes as soon as the more normal gravity vector is restored.
However, my brief ride in an extra (very different beast I know...) left me yearning for the ease of a CS prop and an engine that continues..

On the plus side, it's a nice tourer too, and the view's pretty good.

I am slightly intrigued (and concerned) by the comment about non-standard spin recovery. According to the flight manual:

Did that seems pretty 'standard' from what I've been taught - am I missing something? I've had one occasion where it took about three heartbeats longer than expected to recover, but I'd put that down to having prolonged the spin a couple of turns more than normal (5 turns I think), and possibly having introduced some out-spin aileron - it certainly got a little more wound up than usual.

Cheers.

IIRC the UK version says keep the stick back on recovery, aparently this gives a faster recovery, even so the recovery you quote is not quite SSR, for a start with the Ailerons should be neutral through out recovery rather than just after CC forward, also is not quite SSR which is "Elevator progressively forward until the spin stops", on some aircraft this may mean Full forward!

Try Peterborough Conington- they have a 2160 and an aeros instructor.

Don't forget the aeros Queen of the Skies
 

Aeroed in both and both are great. The Bulldog better (proper stick, doesn't quit whilst spinning, desgined for the job, etc, etc) and easier to fly (more forgiving) from a student perspective but hey if you can find a Firefly (NOT the 160bhp) then you would have an altogether far better plane for aeros.

I am sure that many will disagree but hey that's what forums are for. I know that some will argue the repairs/upkeep are more in the Firefly but it will need less of them. You should try and fly one of these as well if you want to get a good comparison IMHO.

+6, -4 smooth and harmonized controls why wouldn't you.

VT

Hello from a Robin 2160 pilot.

The Cornwall Flying Club at EGLA Bodmin does have a Robin 2160, ion my opinion a superb aircraft indeed. Give them a call on 01208 821419 to book a trial lesson in G-OCFC.

Spin recovery (certainly not to be confused with SSR) varies depending on origin and age of the airframe. French-built examples cite stick held fully aft in the spin recovery to minimise altitude loss. Recent NZ-built examples cite stick forward (to neutral or just "forward" - can't remember) to give a more classic training-oriented spin recovery. I have seen flight manuals giving different recovery advice in different sections of the manual!

In my experience the aircraft recovers readily regardless of which technique is used, provided throttle is fully closed and ailerons neutral. A pleasant basic aerobatic aircraft with predictable characteristics.

Mad Girl - I'm learning at Bournemouth Flying Club who have several Robins (G-MATT being a 2160) and I'm sure they would be happy to take you up for some aeros.

Edit: Just noticed that the original post was nearly 2 years ago :(

Spin recovery
 

The POH was revised. The loss of height during a fully developed spin is 200-300 feet less when keeping the stick back when applying "full rudder to oppose yaw"
I understand this revision was made to suit certification and be in keeping with "standard spin recovery" training.

Spinning the 2160
 

Have flown a Robin 2160 for >100 acro flights and hundreds of spins, and strongly disagree with the statement that there are spin issues. Have flown inverted in a wide range of mounts from Buecker to Extra, and there are very few acro aircraft with a more benign behaviour in all attitudes. Perfect training aircraft! Spins with more than 20 rotations, all directions: no difference to 3 rotations, very stable, very predictable recovery (except that the engine quits after about 6-10 turns). Full stick back, with or without power: no spin without kicking the rudder. Pull back in steep turns and in most cases, the wings will rather level than spin. Snaps are very predictable and you even have to keep the stick fully aft to keep rotating. On the other end, rolling circles in Robin are a true pain and you need a lot of biceps - so it's ok for sportsman level but no more. Wing spar issue: to my knowledge, the wing spar issue was only found in very few examples which were kept outside all the time on airfileds near the sea. Do that with a citabria and you run into problems!