"Vetflyer", like you I'm not hopeful that things will change. Unfortunately part of the problem is that as long as people continue to agree to work for a pittance then employers are going to take advantage of them. We're our own worse enemies.
The last time that I was "between jobs" it took me three months, a lot of CV's/ phone calls, and numerous discussions with employers who wanted me to work for next to nothing before I found my current job. Basically it's not easy.

The reason that I charge instructors for a check flight is there have been a number who turn up fly the free hour with the CFI and never come back.

Charging for the check flight gets rid of 99% of the jokers and I am very happy to refund the cost of the check flight after three months satisfactory service.

It is very hard to make any money in GA and I don't do it to get rich but the attitude of some instructors just gets them the treatment that they deserve, and the way some clubs treat there instructors gets the club owners the instructors that they deserve.

"A and C", where did the above comment spring from? Have I missed something?
I find it very hard to believe that people turn up for interview with the sole intention of getting a free hours flying. Are you sure that the reason that prospective employees don't return is due to the fact that they only wanted a free flight and not the terms of employment offered to them by yourself? Personally, I wouldn't contemplate attending an interview/ working for a company that wanted to charge me for the pleasure.

Best paid PPL instructor in the UK?
 

Best paid PPL instructor in the UK? Well it depends how you play things!
1. The best paid are definitely are the Microlight 3 Axis (PPL only to be one) - £60 per hour! Recently did a job up near Tatenhill for a FAA Tail wheel conversion and on questioning the client why he was happy to pay for my flight and Commercial Instructor time to do this I worked out it would have cost the client about the same to get the ML PPL FI to accompany him down to my airfield for the checkout. Esperanza you may recall when I was up there a couple of weeks ago?
2. FAA instruction - mainly you can name your own price and you don't need to work through an FTO or a RTF - myself I charge out at £50/hour whether it is ground or airborne and I'm cheap apparently as many, FAA only qualified, charge much, much more!
The answer is apparently - find a way to cut out the middleman!

Esperanza
indeed we are 'We're our own worse enemies.' especially those who will fly for free :ugh:

A and C please expland on attitudes of instructors deserving getting paid so little.

Especially why clubs charge approx 4 times what i get paid for private hire ie no overheads.

thanks

when i was instructing, i was getting £25 per hour, £35 for imc training, flying about 40 hours per month and doing quite nicely thankyou very much in comparison to some of my mates.
The thing i always wondered was, if gordon the tosser would do something about the amount of tax we all have to pay on avgas whenever we use it, would there be a bit more fat to help a constantly struggling side of our industry.
Perhaps some more of the guys who really enjoy teaching would be able to stick around a bit longer and the quality of the pilots being licenced would be a bit more consistent.

just a thought.:ugh:

There's an interesting thread in Wannabes's - Jobs, Interviews etc; "wot the f's happening in Scotland" that seems to suggest that the days of hour building FI's are soon to be over, as the regional TP's are ignoring the local experienced FI's for 200 hr integrated types.

If this is really the case, then almost overnight the supply of frozen ATPL's wanting to instruct to get hours is going to vanish. Why hour build for 12-18 months on simple SE when the airline is only interested in your youth and graduation from Cabair/OAT?

Appalling for modular people, but the small bit of good news is that the dearth of new instructors will force wages up and may make career instructing more viable.

ps I have an axe to grind on the subject (career instructing & decent wages). So read my post with that in mind!:)

Vetflyer

"Especially why clubs charge approx 4 times what i get paid for private hire ie no overheads."

True, but it's not quite that simple. The school will have to likely pay to be at the airfield, mostly, and so in the overall business plan will have to charge more than just the instructor fee. Also, in theory, that would mean that if every student turned up in their own aircraft and the school charged only the instructor wages they would earn no £ and that would mean no school = no instructor. The school in some cases will be paying for their buildings, electricity, phone calls to arrange the flight, reception etc etc etc. That's business, not as simple as "no overheads".

Now, whether it needs to be 4 x the instructor fee is of course debatable, but depends on those overheads.

Kapten Kretin

I agree that what you describe is the norm but I don't think that it is ethical or necessary.

In the UK flight PPL training makes an overall loss and clubs are being "subsidised" into profit by professional flying instructors which is unethical and sharp business practice.

What I have noticed is that CFI's recruit a new batch of instructors each summer without any regard for the existing FI's who now have their income slashed when they have survived a lean winter and should be flying and earning good money. This p@$£ses off the instructors who start job hunting in earnest so that they don't have to suffer another dismal winter in la la land. No doubt the CFI would argue that they will be jumping ship for an airline at the drop of a hat in the autumn so he is just protecting the clubs interests.

From what I can see it is a mutually abusive relationship founded on distrust, greed and exploitation.:mad:

The only person winning is the salaried CFI who is doing well by the high turnover of eager new FI's who do all of the circuit bashing while he creams off all of the more lucrative flying for himself and his buddy.

Unfazed,

Fair point, but like I said the amount charged depends on other factors and not simply the instructors pay. And, as i said, whether the amount charged needs to be that high is debatable.

Was that a typo for my name by the way or just plain ignorance normally reserved for Jet Blast?:confused:
KK

Captain Kremen

It was a bit of wry humour but as it has caused offence - apologies !

Why put the overheads on the FI charges ?

Stick them on the hourly rate much fairer and more transparent

When you charge double what the instructor gets we are talking taking the Pi£ss !:)

Unfazed - missed the humour, no worries! :ok:

Why put the overheads on the FI charges ?
Obviously a school is trying to earn a living and there should be some profit, especially if you are not using a club aircraft where you would normally earn it. However, double the instructor fee is as you rightly say, extracting the wee.
I know at my school we pay quite well and that tends to keep your instructor with you, unless an airline job arrives. But this is clearly no surprise to us and we wish them well when they go - well done!
But it is a hard industry to earn your keep and instructor wages suffer undoubtedly. This is not always the schools fault but more of the high costs generally involved, and i can honestly say that loads of profit is not creamed off to the CFI/owner here!
KK

Seeing as this topic appears to be going off at a bit of a tangent I'll bring up another point. Holiday pay. If you're a full time employee do you receive holiday pay? If the answer is no, then are you aware that you're entitled to it by law? If I didn't receive holiday pay then I would be down approximately £2000/year. Therefore it's certainly worth fighting for. Hopefully somebody will be able to come up with a link to prove this (I'm still a bit of a novice when it comes to computer jiggery pokery).
No real surprises have arisen from what I've read so far. It looks as if we're all in pretty much the same position. I'll follow any upcoming responses and thoughts with interest.
That's enough from me. I'll stop now before a bounty is put on my head. I hope that you all have a good summer. :)

KK
Point taken and as you say clubs need some income , but 4 times ! perhaps a even split ?

UnF
'mutually abusive relationship founded on distrust, greed and exploitation'

about sums it up!

If no money in PPL trg , why not..........look in carpark, the new expensive cars are owned by the students who usually have money ...then we train them in 35yo heaps with half equipment u/s

........surely some of these people are willing to pay a little bit more for a better teaching environment?

But it has ever been thus!

I look in our car park and see a mix of wealth, i suppose thats why the flying fraternity is so great to be in - so many people from varied back grounds. we should be trying to keep costs down so that more people can enjoy our fabulous hobby/vocation. i guess that there are some ways to keep costs down (not sure where though) although i agree it shouldn't be at the expense of a professional instructor.
If we can find some way of keeping running costs sensible, because they are crazy, then more could be paid towards instructors wages. As a school operator i know how tight the margins really are and a worry is that higher charges to the customer will reduce your student base and make things worse. Personally, our instructors are paid above average and with a retainer as well, several good perks and certainly no fee for a check ride. So, we keep them longer - good business sense i reckon. But, this means we are always having to keep an eye on other expenses. It's a good job we love flying.
Thoughts?

I'm not at all convinced that a reduction in a school's running costs will lead to an improvement in instructor' pay. Such a reduction might come from, say, reduced taxation upon Avgas, or reduced bureaucracy.

It seems to me that any such cost reduction would affect all schools pretty much equally. So, the overall cost to the consumer might fall, but the schools would still be competing on the same basis that they do at present....and instructor' pay would again be under pressure as each school tries to "out-cheap" the other.

bogbeagle

BogBeagle

I think you are right ....any reduction would be used to increase profits.

It is the same elsewhere.. say stable owners use young girls' love of horses to get them to work for nothing. We fly because we like to.....

....doubt if ever will change until the workers control means of production......ooops :O

Instructor pays goes up = the cost of learning to fly goes up = less people learning to fly = instructors fly less = instructors pay not so good.

"I eat because I'm unhappy, and I'm unhappy because I eat - it's a vicious circle" :}

VFE.

VFE
So Instructors pay is the main factor in the cost of training ! Not repair bills for old a/c? Not cost of fuel?

So if instructors worked for £5 per flying , they would get more take home pay as more people start learning to fly?

I don't think so ........

I did not say it was the main factor in the cost of learning to fly did I?

I was just responding to the calls of raising the instructor wage with all the other factors set the same.

VFE.