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Disclosure checks and flying instructors.
I'm having a bit of a disagreement with my girlfriend about whether an FI should have a full disclosure done and I thought I'd get some more opinions from others here.
Personally I have had a couple done for security passes in the previous 2 years, but according to the letter of the law, I should have one done specifically for the flying school. Not only that, but all our FI's should have disclosure forms because we may end up flying with people under the age of 18. This is all down to the child protection act and whilst I have never heard of any problems in this area specifically, has any one else ever heard of issues that have arisen in the past? The jist of the original discussion is that I was leaving myself and the school open to potential trouble by not having done these checks, though another way to cover one's back could be to rewrite the flying order book to include something about child protection a far cheaper proposition. I think it's all a load of tosh, but since we are living in an increasingly litigeous society could there be cause for concern and should we go down a path of security checks for FI's? |
If you are flying alone with under 18s (normally a necessity in a 2-seat aircraft ;) ) you could be seen as being in a child-care position and your company should get a disclosure done for you for all the reasons you cite.
However, as you will only be flying on a fairly irregular basis and have little contact outwith lessons then there could be an argument to the contrary. Do you get parents to sign a consent form for U18s? AIUI, disclosures are only valid for the company and position in which they are submitted, ie, a nursery worker would need a separate disclosure done if they were to take up a position as a FI too. The company may find that they are in breach of the law if they fail to take all necessary precautions to ensure their staff are suitable to work with children (ie, if they don't do the check they they could end up in the poo.) Realistically, it is best to get the checks done. |
What on earth is a 'disclosure check'? I've never even heard of such a thing.
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It's a sort of criminal record check. Basically in this context to ensure that none of your instructors have any convictions for child molesting. It won't tell you if they are, only if they've been convicted of such things.
I've worked with my team for quite a while and know them and their families, but yet I should still get checks done "just in case." The bl**dy nanny state gone mad again. Teachers, doctors etc. need them done, since they work with children on a regular basis, but since we also come into contact with under 18's occasionally, the argument is that we should do it too. The other problem is I'm not sure as an employer, whether we have any right to see the disclosure form in the first place.......... It's all madness I tell you.... |
What utter nanny state crap. Does everyone have to prove that they're not a kiddy-fiddler these days? Of course if the perverted swine were locked up and the key thrown away in the first place, there wouldn't be any such problem....
Still, anyone who joins our military Club has to have some background check done by Plod (whatever that consists of) - I assume that they take care of such things as "Are you now, or have you ever been, a child molester?" I don't think we get many < 18 year olds, anyway. Blissfully, we seem to be a largely yoof-free zone! |
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Beaten to it by YYZ.
Its a right pain in the arse. Evn though I went through one for a security pass I still have to apply again for any other organisations i am envolved in. The local sailing club gets all the instructors to do the checks and even has a Youth officer to supervise that all the stuff is legal. No adult is allowed to be by themselves with a kid. All children must have a "incharge adult" responsable for them. To the point that if you enter the changing rooms by yourself and there are kids changing and no other adult you have to walk out and go and get another adult. The bugger is having to get an Enhanced disclosure. Which all the sailing instructors have to get. http://www.disclosurescotland.co.uk/typedisc.htm "those who apply for work that regularly involves caring for, training, supervising or being in sole charge of children or vulnerable adults" Sounds like a mine field for flying schools if they have to comply. Must admit I had quite a few <18 year old students a few <16 and proberly about 30 odd <16 trial flight lessons in 2 seater aircraft. I think all the cadet forces officers and insructors had to start going through the process. The scouts did it about 2 years ago. MJ |
What does Scotland have to do with all this?
I'm not being xenophobic, but who the heck are 'Disclosure Scotland'? Is there a similar English organisation? |
I don't know if there is a body in England. I have never heard of one. Everyone I know have use them to get an airside pass.
quote from web site AIRSIDE PASS In April 2003 the Department of Transport issued an instruction that any new employees recruited to work airside at a UK Airport must first produce a Basic Disclosure in order to obtain their Airside or Restricted Zone (RZ) Pass. In July 2003 this instruction was extended to cover existing staff. All staff currently requiring an airside pass will need to produce a Basic Disclosure either prior to their pass being renewed between 1st July 2003 and 31st July 2004 or in order to retain their airside pass if the pass is not due for renewal between these dates. The only source of a Basic Disclosure at this time is Disclosure Scotland. Its lists from the Scottish criminal records office as: http://www.scro.police.uk/ A private partnership with BT and the Scottish Executive allow Disclosure Scotland to help employers and voluntary organisations in Scotland… So it looks like a SEO quango with BT running the IT and staff side of things. MJ |
The general place to go is www.disclosure.gov.uk
The only thing that a disclosure does is to provide the employer with a piece of paper saying that they(the employer) have done their best to ensure that people who should not (for legal reasons) work unsupervised with children are not allowed to do so within their organisation. A self employed person can not get a disclosure for themselves. Thus a one man band flying school is unable to get a disclosure. But of course that one man band knows exactly what position they are in!!! Having a disclosure will not in any way change what happens if a child makes a complaint or affect any outcome. Thus as far as I am aware the only time it would be required is for organisations delaing with Air Cadets and the like where the Air Cadet Organisation made it a requirement. Word of caution - Only a certain number of organisations are permitted to ask the questions required for a disclosure. The CFI can not simply draw up a questionaire for all the instructors as the CFI is not entitled to the information provided in response to disclosure questions. Regards, DFC |
That's what I thought, so how does a school who has a number of self employed FI's ensure that any of them aren't kiddie fiddlers?
I've known them all for a long time, so I'm in no way worried about it, but there can be some malicious people around today, so what would happen if someone made an accusation? Why do you have to get a different one done for each place of employment? My recent ones for airside passes don't seem to count. What a complicated load of garbage this is. |
Hi
As a full time instructor and RAF Cadet Instuctor, I have come to realise that at work I am in a vunerable position. I have had to have all the checks completed to work with RAF cadets, and that is fine, but at no stage has anyone ever asked for a check regarding flight instruction. We get quite a few 14 year old boys who want to go flying, and we take them up for very basic lessons. To anyone else out there doing the same thing here is my advice. Take someone along with you in the aircraft. Advice the parents so. I have found that if the parent does not wish to go ask the student to bring along a friend or two. The bottomline is to cover your back. It does not take much (the wrong thing said for instance) and you are in deep trouble. Also approach your boss and ask about having the check done. I am afraid that that is the way of the world now. Paddy |
All well and good taking someone with you. (I remember there being a problem with a couple of Malaysian Female cadets once and they had to be paired up and flown in a 4 seater instead of on their own with an FI.)
Having a second person with you isn't really an option in a 2 seater! |
Adults who even occasionally work with children or vulnerable adults need an an 'enhanced' criminal records bureau check for that job
The agency responsible for this revenue generating search process is the criminal records bureau they are at www.crb.gov.uk/ A 'basic' check is disclosure where offences that are spent under the rehabilitation of offenders act are not revealed by the bureau A 'standard' check reveals ALL offences And an 'enhanced' check looks ALL the above and any pending in the court system as well.............. :sad: |
BEagle. had to have one done when i joined my local AEF recently - and i couldn't even get my current airline to forward the one done for them!
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but there can be some malicious people around today, so what would happen if someone made an accusation?
As I said in my previous post, if an accusation is made it makes absolutely no difference if the "defendant" has a disclosure or not. The exact same process will be followed by the Police and the outcome will be the same disclosure or not. The outcome will also be the same for your organsation - bad press etc etc (even if the acusation is false) - no matter what checks you did. So unless you are required by say the aircadet organisation to put such checks in place, so that you can get a contract - don't bother - you get nothing in the way of protection from the system. Remember, a reformed axe murderer will not have anthing in their disclosure that prevents them from working with children................might not want to employ them as an instructor and then put them chopping logs for the club stove too often though. :D Regards, DFC |
SCANDAL - YOUTH LEADER SACKED
Dubious Circumstances
I heard of one chap who I used to work with in another industry who was later drummed out of a youth organisation in which he held a fairly senior position under "dubious circumstances". Pervert Exposed When a friend informed me of lurid tabloid reports of an ex-colleague being exposed as a pervert I was initially shocked, and decided to check it out for myself on this so-called "newspapers" own website. Moved House Apparently he had helped an ex-member of the organisation move house and had thereby broken the rules about such contact outside of the organisation. Inappropriate Relationship However there were also references to allegations of an inappropriate relationship with this female during her time in the organisation, and a subsequent acrimonius separation from his partner which may or may not have had anything to do with this. Physical Contact Strangely enough there was no mention of any evidence whatsoever of any inappropriate physical contact between them. Condemned It is possible that a certain amount of "chemistry" had been suspected to exist between them by fellow members of the organisation - after all, a "teacher's pet" is usually obvious to all - and yet his conduct could nevertheless have been entirely beyond reproach until the point where he was subsequently condemned on a relative technicality. Undoubtedly Wrong He made the mistake of breaking a rule which had been put in place to protect the reputation of all the parties involved in such circumstances, and he was undoubtedly wrong to do so. Apparent Glee However the apparent glee with which many seem keen to pillory this individual as a pervert speaks more about what is going on in the mind of his accusers rather than the facts of the matter insofar as they are discernable. Criminal Charges However despite not even the slightest hint of any criminal charges, never mind convictions, mud sticks - and this chap's reputation has effectively been ruined. Father Present I don't like flying with anyone under the age of 16 unless they are accompanied by an adult, and preferably relegated to the back seat. On the few occasions where I have flown with anyone under this age up front, it has been with a male youth and I have nevertheless asked him to position his seat far enough back for me to reach all controls without physical contact. On one recent flight in a PA28 I requested the young man sitting next to me to change fuel tanks, having briefed him on the process involved and watching carefully that he did so correctly - all this despite the fact that his father was present and sitting behind us. Adolescent Female I would strongly advise all instructors to consider similar precautions. Also, I would be much happier for the female instructor on our team to fly with any adolescent female wishing to fly in a two-seat aeroplane. Touched Knee When I think of the amount of time that instructors and students, male and female, have "inadvertently" touched my knee or my thigh whilst allegedly operating the ancillary controls of the aircraft, I shudder to think of the lascivious advantage they may have taken of me. God Forbid Anyone who gets involved with youth organisations in the current climate is a braver man than me. God forbid you should forget yourself for a moment and pat some poor young soul on the head! Sexual Offences Unfortunately the record shows that it is those who are involved with or introduced into a family situation, who are most likely to commit sexual offences against the children in their care - including a recent infamous case regarding a certain prolific ppruner of which many here will be aware. Family Situation I would therefore respectfully suggest to Sas that any talk of knowing an instructors family has no bearing whatsoever on such issues, and would encourage him to actively pursue the disclosure route in the interests of all concerned. |
Unfortunately it shows that personal contact and 'gut' feeling about a person are now no longer enough.
In the cramped space of a light a/c cockpit, there will always be some amount physical contact, no matter how careful one is. Personally, if I know I may have to reach across someone, (magnetos, fuel tank selector etc.) then I will always mention it before I do it, just to check if they are alright about it. I'm in command of the a/c, and it is upto me to make sure that everything is as it should be. I don't care about huggy fluffiness in this situation, since you as an a/c commander can do whatever you need to preserve the safety of an aircraft. Worrying about using controls etc. because you are concerned about potentially being sued for molestation seems ludicrous to me. I always explain that I WILL be reaching across them from time to tme and that there is a clear reason for it. That's what happens when you fly light aircraft. As DFC has pointed out, what protection does the Disclosure checks actually provide? People of any age can learn, though they can't log it until 14, solo until 16 or get a licence at 17, occasionally we may find ourselves with yougsters in a small 2 seat a/c. What are we to do then? Ban them (we can't do that, that we be ageism) Force them into a larger and more expensive machine (discrimination of some kind I'm sure) or do we just carry on as we have done, since no-one has mentioned there ever having been a problem in this way in the first place. A disclosure form doesn't seem to actually offer much in the way of protection, except for the club itself. I would have thought it could help there, if there were any allegations, at least the club could say "we did something", but it doesn't help the poor FI who's in the cr*p however, since everyone nowadays seems to be guilty until proven innocent, especially if the press stick their oar in. |
Personally, if I know I may have to reach across someone, (magnetos, fuel tank selector etc.) then I will always mention it before I do it, just to check if they are alright about it. I'm in command of the a/c, and it is upto me to make sure that everything is as it should be. ...I always explain that I WILL be reaching across them from time to tme and that there is a clear reason for it. That's what happens when you fly light aircraft. However, consider this scenario:- You are providing elementary flight instruction in a PA28 to a 14 year old girl who has never flown before (unlikely perhaps - but lets assume that the clubs 2 seater has gone tech). Her parents have assured you that she has flown Concorde on FS2004 and is going to be Scotlands first astronaut (sorry Beagle, couldn't resist!) Accordingly, she wants her first flight to be a "proper" lesson. The lesson doesn't go particularly well even by an average to poor introductory standard, and you have occasion to change the tanks twice during the flight. You nevertheless congratulate the youngster on her performance during the debrief, pointing out how "well" she coped with the transition from FS2004 to a real aeroplane in order not to dent her confidence. After being thoroughly quizzed by the keen parents about whether their pride and joy is likely to acheive their PPL within the 45 hours they have budgeted for over the next 3 years, you diplomatically suggest that she might have a better chance of achieving this if she came back in a year or two and had the opportunity for greater continuity over a shorter period or time. The next thing you hear about this is when you are visited by two plain-clothes policemen. The chap who does most of the talking is very apologetic and reassures you that it is just a procedural matter and nothing too serious. It turns out that the young lady threw a tantrum when she found out that she wouldn't get to fly again for a year or two, and then burst into tears and locked herself in the bathroom. After eventually being coaxed out again, she confided to her mum that she knew she hadn't done very well, but that she didn't like the instructor and couldn't relax because he kept reaching across her and touching her legs and stuff.... when the father heard this he flew into a rage, threatening all sorts of retribution, only to be calmed down by his wife's insistence that they inform the police. You are of course completely gutted by this, and can barely comprehend how such a monstrously farcical suggestion could be taken seriously. The friendly policeman recognises your agitation and once again reassures you that although such allegations have to be thoroughly investigated, most of the time they amount to little more than entirely innocent parties being caught up in a "misunderstanding". He then proceeds to ask you detailed questions about the flight, asking in particular detail exactly what was demonstrated to the young lady, and in particular what she was required to do - he appears to take quite an interest in the flying himself, saying that as a boy he always wanted to be a pilot, and he asks about how much it costs. You start to feel a bit more relaxed.... Then the quiet one pipes up that he couldn't do it. He goes on to explain that he's been in all sorts of dangerous situations, but the idea of flying a plane gives him the "collywobbles" - he doesn't reckon he's got the co-ordination for it and by the sound of it the young lady in question made a much better job of her first flight than he probably would. And then comes the bombshell... "Don't think I'd have too much difficulty with operating the fuel tank selector though?" Your speech falters, your mouth goes dry and you are almost unable to speak intelligibly at all, aware that they are both watching you VERY closely at this point, as you desperately try to explain the necessity of operating this damned lever yourself. The quiet one is not so quiet now, as he goes on to relate how the same young lady had explained to him in great detail the complexities of moving fuel between the tanks of Concorde in a transatlantic flight in order to stay within the weight and balance envelope. Six months later, in court, you are able to defend yourself much more clearly - having practiced at length - and yet your powers of reasoning now feel strangely weaker than ever. By sticking to the procedures I have outlined above, I would think that any instructor is much less likely to be the victim of such sorry circumstances. A disclosure form doesn't seem to actually offer much in the way of protection, except for the club itself. |
Blackshift,
Utter bull! That is the best way to describe your scenario. I change the fuel tank selector because I am the pilot and it is my responsibility. The position of the fuel selector is a matter for the manufacturer, designer and certification Authority. I reach over, move the selector, confirm the selection and am happy that the procedure has been caried out correctly. What I do not do is a) Touch the person in the left seat in any way that would be dissimilar to reaching past them if they were at a shop counter and I wished to reach something on the lower shelf. Or b) move any part of their person out of the way - I provide a verbal warning - "excuse me I am going to change tanks can you please move your leg". If your scenario of brushing past some 14 year old was going to end up in court, the Police could stand on Oxford Street and catch thousands every day who brush past each other. Any instructor with any form of knowledge would be able to haul out several accident and incident reports to show that there is a good safety reason for the pilot un command doing the action until the student has received demonstrations and has practised the exercise. CPLs havr managed to get it worng so whay not a potential student. Once again I must point out that even if your imaginary instructor had a gren light from the disclosure it would not change the actions of the Police, Press or Parents one bit! As far as I can see the only people who would benifit from every FTO having a full disclosure would be the companies that charge £xx for each disclosure. You don't have shares in such a company do you? If instructors and schools are so strapped for money, why invent a new way of creating an unnecessary expense? Regards, DFC |
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