Cabair Instructors at EGTC
 

To all Cabair instructors at EGTC

Please explain to me how you teach your students to join and fly the circuit at EGTC.

As far as I am aware the circuit high is 800' aal
And the base turn should be within the ATZ and not over Bedford
And final is not an 4/8 mile affair


I have been 'put out' by Cabair students twice in a week now and really would like to know what they are being taught.

BTW, the next occurance will result in a complaint to ATC

C-I-M

...Just wondering (and I'm not an EGTC man), why you think the base turn should be within the ATZ?

Perhaps becasue the entire point of the ATZ is to provide greater safety to circuit traffic? I agree that occasionally at that point in the circuit the aircraft will be just outside a 2-nm ATZ, however as a general course it should be just within the ATZ on a standard circuit pattern. By chance I was chatting about this with someone from SRG recently, he having introduced the subject ciritcising circuits being flown large enough to be outside the ATZ.

Astronomy Dominie

Dont have the time right now to work it out exactly, but how many track miles do you need to decend from 800' at lets say 80kts on a 3 degree glide slope? Assuming you dont start you decent until you turn onto final (less if you do it correctly and decend to 500 on the base leg)


C-I-M

roughly 2.7 nm, C-I-M, outside the ATZ. However the 2-nm ATZ is designed to be just big enough to contain a standard circuit, hence my comment about occasionally being outside.

Send Clowns

Thanks, the last incident the guy was over 4.5nm out. And I had a stream of aircraft following me downwind which by nature meant that they were all going to make the circuit even bigger if we stayed in the correct order of approach.
C-I-M

Interesting discussion...

My remark was prompted by the thought that the purposes of the ATZ are, in Law, divorced from issues to do with the pattern of traffic at an aerodrome.

Rule 17 (5) tells you what to do 'in the vicinity of an aerodrome', Rule 39 imposes requirements for flight within an ATZ. The two are distinct.

So, I would suggest that when joining the circuit, one simply assesses the 'pattern of traffic' and coforms to it. It may be a large or small pattern, depending on lots of factors.

Of course, this pattern size argument will run and run as it has for years. I tend to fly a circuit suitable for the day, so, a circuit in a B737 in great weather may have the downwind leg five miles from the runway, whilst in a C152, in poor visibility, I may be over the parallel taxiway...

As to more aircraft making the circuit bigger, this will happen, quite naturally, and when things quieten down, it will contract again.

One thing I do have a personal problem with, is using a 3deg glideslope in a single. This puts you outside gliding range of the runway, and is, IMHO, bad airmanship. Mind you, the same can be said of flying rectangular circuits so beloved of the GA community, rather than oval circuits beloved of the military or cropped circuits, popular in the gliding world.

ps 'complaining' to ATC may not achieve much - they don't dictate the pattern size. If you have a real beef, you might approach the CFI...

AD

I realise that in law they are separate. However that doesn't mean that the actual reasons for the rules are separate, it means that the rules have been set up to be flexible. I also agree to conform to the traffic pattern once you join the circuit, but 4½ miles is an awfully long way out. Some of those aircraft should have been requested to hold clear until the circuit was clear enough to fit them in, their own airmanship should have led them to do so as well. The pilot that far out should have been rebriefed.

Any circuit using a powered final approach puts you outside gliding range of the runway at some point. Good airmanship dictates you know how to deal with this so no-one is seriously injured in event of engine failure, rather than that you can always glide to the runway.

A 6°+ approach path (required to make the runway from the start of the final leg, let alone the base turn point) is awfully steep, and impossible to adjust if the approach looks long without sideslip!

Astronomy Dominie

I agree with you re the 3 degree slope.

C-I-M

Was Charlie India Mike being cut up by solo students or by planes with the instructors on board?

EGTC is a busy place, and I've done orbits, S turns on final and long downwinds - the lot. Goes with the territory.

In Fort Lauderdale, Florida, I've had base turns over the Everglades! I certainly wasn't taught that.



Flying Tooth Driller

Flying Tooth Driller

It was a solo student
No , not cut up this time.

In fact I cut in and so did the aircraft behind me and the student ended up as number 3. He was so far out of position that I never got sight of him at all. (scary thought)

I have done most of my flying at EGTC and am used to doing all the extending , orbiting, waiting in the local area etc

C-I-M


BTW Can anyone tell me what the correct approach speed of the DA40 is?

Oh silly, silly CIM - they're teaching them to be airline pilots. :*

As a result all the studes fly 3* approaches and should be stable at Vref+5 by 1000' hence the 4 mile final. :* :*

Thats also why they are tought low drag and constant descent approaches in the Cougar!! :confused:

If you want to see some bomber command circuits go to Biggin Hill, thanks to the teaching of reference points for circuits, nearly every student turns final at 3NM on 21 and 3.5NM on 03. :mad:

<<<In fact I cut in and so did the aircraft behind me and the student ended up as number 3. He was so far out of position that I never got sight of him at all. (scary thought)>>


It is indeed - but it's amazing how you just can't see them always..........

I think the approach speed of the DA40 is about the same as a Warrior. I'm trying to get Cabair to let me fly one, but they are currently not letting hirers use them.

FTD

CIM, technically if the A/C leaves the ATZ it is only then subject to FIS and could be in conflict with traffic not talking to Cranfield tower. So be aware.
Also, 3 deg glideslope is 3 x distance from threshold so as the base to final turn is at 5-600' you should be at 2 miles. If you are at 800' on final you would be at 3 miles
m

Sorry, pilotbear, but no.

Aerodrome Control provides services 'to aircraft flying with visual reference to the surface in, and in the vicinity of, the aerodrome traffic zone'...

Whilst it might seem that Rule 39 should dovetail with this, it doesn't. Interestingly, Rule 34 imposes requirements to comply with visual signals whilst flying 'in the pattern of traffic', but there is no similar Rule regarding ATC.

See MATS Part One Section 2 Chapter 1.

Noted that no Cabair instructors have answered the question

Maybe I should go pay them a visit and ask for a check ride to see what their like

C-I-M

AD

Pilotbear is correct. Although the aerodrome control is able to give services to such aircraft, the aircraft are not requied to contact the controllers unless they are going to enter the ATZ. So if you leave teh ATZ in the circuit you "...could be in conflict with traffic not talking to Cranfield tower" as he stated.

Thank you SC, further to this have several hundred hrs flying and instructing out of TC in the past so I know the score, the controllers there are very good and cope with a high workload very well compared to other places. Often when it has been busy I have been able to get circuits on rwy 18 when everyone else is on 22..that can be interesting timing.

>BTW Can anyone tell me what the correct approach speed of the DA40 is?<

With or without the fire engine waiting for it at the end of the runway?

Seriously, the EGTC circuit is sometimes a nightmare thanks to some of the solos - and not only Cabair, but few other solo students from some unnamed schools.... also not only solos....

All honours to ATC there for keeping the sky untangled. They have been known to rap a few knuckles when required.

Air Born

Yes, they do seem to be having a few problems with the DA40's maybe its not the aircraft but the studes that seem to be lacking in the necessary skills to operate them correctly.

If I'm not mistaken most of the incidents have been with solo students.

C-I-M