Why is SIM time useless in terms of recency ?
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Why is SIM time useless in terms of recency ?
Hey folks,
active EASA TRI/TRE here.
In late 2019 I quit my job as a captain in the Middle East to join a LCC gig in Europe which eventually got canceled because of covid. I haven’t been flying the line for almost 1 year and a half but been actively working as a TRI/TRE in the sim and still are, helping fellow pilots to renew their ratings.
I got recently turned down an application as I didn’t have a flight within the last 12 months even though I have spent hours and hours in the sim renewing people’s Licences... what the hell is wrong in our industry ? Are we seriously still considering in 2021 that acting as a TRI/TRE in the sim is less important than flying the machine itself ? Do airlines seriously prefer to invite for assessments people that could have potentially flying like cowboys in their previous operators but with “a flight in the past 12 months” rather than somebody who spends dozen of hours in a training environment ? And same goes for the trainees... I’d rather assess somebody who’s been in the sim doing LOFTS as he/she doesn’t have a job. Sorry for the rant hope you can shed some lights. Cheers.
active EASA TRI/TRE here.
In late 2019 I quit my job as a captain in the Middle East to join a LCC gig in Europe which eventually got canceled because of covid. I haven’t been flying the line for almost 1 year and a half but been actively working as a TRI/TRE in the sim and still are, helping fellow pilots to renew their ratings.
I got recently turned down an application as I didn’t have a flight within the last 12 months even though I have spent hours and hours in the sim renewing people’s Licences... what the hell is wrong in our industry ? Are we seriously still considering in 2021 that acting as a TRI/TRE in the sim is less important than flying the machine itself ? Do airlines seriously prefer to invite for assessments people that could have potentially flying like cowboys in their previous operators but with “a flight in the past 12 months” rather than somebody who spends dozen of hours in a training environment ? And same goes for the trainees... I’d rather assess somebody who’s been in the sim doing LOFTS as he/she doesn’t have a job. Sorry for the rant hope you can shed some lights. Cheers.
Only half a speed-brake
You are well familiar how the airlines selected and treated the redundancies. In particular the stories from around the sandbox shared here are shocking, but most likely not that obscenely worse compared to what has happend elsewhere too.
I smell incompetence and arrogance with a bit of bullying to cover anxiety among peers and in front the higher-ups, not wrongful intent per se. In that case, the hiring process actully cannot be any different.
Wish you will soon find an employer who can see it your way. There are places, however, where out of recency for more than 12 months becomes a serious and costly headache. As long as the operator has a choice of who to pick, don't blame them.
(After all, the smart, tactful and intelligent people went to become pilots anyway, right?)
I smell incompetence and arrogance with a bit of bullying to cover anxiety among peers and in front the higher-ups, not wrongful intent per se. In that case, the hiring process actully cannot be any different.
Wish you will soon find an employer who can see it your way. There are places, however, where out of recency for more than 12 months becomes a serious and costly headache. As long as the operator has a choice of who to pick, don't blame them.
(After all, the smart, tactful and intelligent people went to become pilots anyway, right?)
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You are well familiar how the airlines selected and treated the redundancies. In particular the stories from around the sandbox shared here are shocking, but most likely not that obscenely worse compared to what has happend elsewhere too.
I smell incompetence and arrogance with a bit of bullying to cover anxiety among peers and in front the higher-ups, not wrongful intent per se. In that case, the hiring process actully cannot be any different.
Wish you will soon find an employer who can see it your way. There are places, however, where out of recency for more than 12 months becomes a serious and costly headache. As long as the operator has a choice of who to pick, don't blame them.
(After all, the smart, tactful and intelligent people went to become pilots anyway, right?)
I smell incompetence and arrogance with a bit of bullying to cover anxiety among peers and in front the higher-ups, not wrongful intent per se. In that case, the hiring process actully cannot be any different.
Wish you will soon find an employer who can see it your way. There are places, however, where out of recency for more than 12 months becomes a serious and costly headache. As long as the operator has a choice of who to pick, don't blame them.
(After all, the smart, tactful and intelligent people went to become pilots anyway, right?)
See you're only 45, Nickler, so your predicament is tough especially within the present C19 situation.
I'm sure we all appreciate your sentiments about present employment too. Your qualifications make sense to everybody apart from some suits who unfortunately are still as dumb with regard to experience as they ever were; only interested in the RULES as opposed to commonsense.
What is worse however is that some of these suits were once "US", line pilots who made it into management, were only interested in climbing the ladder and weren't necessarily that good when they were flying the line. So I'm sure we can sympathise with your feeling of disappointment and betrayal.
However, there are out there some companies with good middle management/training staff who will acknowledge your experience, value your expertise and find a way to put it to good use.
So, be assured that, with the way the airline business is turning out in the twenties, there is still a need for good solid training and refam., constructive testing and sound assessment of the new breed, maybe of the old-fashioned, 80s/90s sort. This could actually save the industry from destroying itself !
Someone will need you. Good luck.
I'm sure we all appreciate your sentiments about present employment too. Your qualifications make sense to everybody apart from some suits who unfortunately are still as dumb with regard to experience as they ever were; only interested in the RULES as opposed to commonsense.
What is worse however is that some of these suits were once "US", line pilots who made it into management, were only interested in climbing the ladder and weren't necessarily that good when they were flying the line. So I'm sure we can sympathise with your feeling of disappointment and betrayal.
However, there are out there some companies with good middle management/training staff who will acknowledge your experience, value your expertise and find a way to put it to good use.
So, be assured that, with the way the airline business is turning out in the twenties, there is still a need for good solid training and refam., constructive testing and sound assessment of the new breed, maybe of the old-fashioned, 80s/90s sort. This could actually save the industry from destroying itself !
Someone will need you. Good luck.
Only half a speed-brake
Lost in the translation. You should hope for a better job where the qualifiactions and experience you have will be properly credited. No sarcasm involved.
When standing in the line for a shopfloor, simple stack-shelf pilot job, do not be suprprised though when the company gives preference to those who are 4000 euros less expensive to enlist - as long as there are such people available. TRE's are not the easiest to lock-in, the word overqualified comes to mind.
When standing in the line for a shopfloor, simple stack-shelf pilot job, do not be suprprised though when the company gives preference to those who are 4000 euros less expensive to enlist - as long as there are such people available. TRE's are not the easiest to lock-in, the word overqualified comes to mind.
Gender Faculty Specialist
Are we seriously still considering in 2021 that acting as a TRI/TRE in the sim is less important than flying the machine itself ? Do airlines seriously prefer to invite for assessments people that could have potentially flying like cowboys in their previous operators but with “a flight in the past 12 months” rather than somebody who spends dozen of hours in a training environment ? And same goes for the trainees... I’d rather assess somebody who’s been in the sim doing LOFTS as he/she doesn’t have a job. Sorry for the rant hope you can shed some lights. Cheers.
Let's consider also that the vast majority of us aren't "cowboys" and are pretty good at doing what we do.
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See you're only 45, Nickler, so your predicament is tough especially within the present C19 situation.
I'm sure we all appreciate your sentiments about present employment too. Your qualifications make sense to everybody apart from some suits who unfortunately are still as dumb with regard to experience as they ever were; only interested in the RULES as opposed to commonsense.
What is worse however is that some of these suits were once "US", line pilots who made it into management, were only interested in climbing the ladder and weren't necessarily that good when they were flying the line. So I'm sure we can sympathise with your feeling of disappointment and betrayal.
However, there are out there some companies with good middle management/training staff who will acknowledge your experience, value your expertise and find a way to put it to good use.
So, be assured that, with the way the airline business is turning out in the twenties, there is still a need for good solid training and refam., constructive testing and sound assessment of the new breed, maybe of the old-fashioned, 80s/90s sort. This could actually save the industry from destroying itself !
Someone will need you. Good luck.
I'm sure we all appreciate your sentiments about present employment too. Your qualifications make sense to everybody apart from some suits who unfortunately are still as dumb with regard to experience as they ever were; only interested in the RULES as opposed to commonsense.
What is worse however is that some of these suits were once "US", line pilots who made it into management, were only interested in climbing the ladder and weren't necessarily that good when they were flying the line. So I'm sure we can sympathise with your feeling of disappointment and betrayal.
However, there are out there some companies with good middle management/training staff who will acknowledge your experience, value your expertise and find a way to put it to good use.
So, be assured that, with the way the airline business is turning out in the twenties, there is still a need for good solid training and refam., constructive testing and sound assessment of the new breed, maybe of the old-fashioned, 80s/90s sort. This could actually save the industry from destroying itself !
Someone will need you. Good luck.
Rule-wise (FCL 060) one can have 3 TO/LDG in the sim, so we can all be easily “recent”. I believe the 12 month rule is more of an insurance related thing.
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By the way buddy, my last flight wasn’t 20 years ago, it was end of 2019 as a 380 captain in EK, where I have spent close to 20 years. I did resign to join a relatively big european LCC on the A320 and be based not far from home. You know what happened next.
Gender Faculty Specialist
This comment shows You are not a trainer and have no idea what a trainer does
By the way buddy, my last flight wasn’t 20 years ago, it was end of 2019 as a 380 captain in EK, where I have spent close to 20 years. I did resign to join a relatively big european LCC on the A320 and be based not far from home. You know what happened next.
By the way buddy, my last flight wasn’t 20 years ago, it was end of 2019 as a 380 captain in EK, where I have spent close to 20 years. I did resign to join a relatively big european LCC on the A320 and be based not far from home. You know what happened next.
You come across as one of those self-important trainers who thinks they should just walk in to a job "because they're a trainer". You're no better or worse than the rest of us...but probably more rusty. My last flight was 7 days ago if we're comparing importance.
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On the contrary I am more than aware. Although you are part correct, I am not a trainer...anymore.
You come across as one of those self-important trainers who thinks they should just walk in to a job "because they're a trainer". You're no better or worse than the rest of us...but probably more rusty. My last flight was 7 days ago if we're comparing importance.
You come across as one of those self-important trainers who thinks they should just walk in to a job "because they're a trainer". You're no better or worse than the rest of us...but probably more rusty. My last flight was 7 days ago if we're comparing importance.
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A Sim is a Sim, and the real thing is the real thing.
It's not the same.
If it were, we could train young pilots in the Sim, call them Captains and release them to the line.
I am a TRE myself, but in the helicopter world.
The Sim is much different from the real helicopter.
Plus a TRE does not get any "flying time" - if you grab the controls as an examiner, it means the check pilot failed...
So you cold only claim your instructor time.. But then again:
Instructing is not flying time.
It means you are spending hours talking to somebody how to do it, instead of doing it all yourself over and over again.
Ask yourself:
Who would you hire:
A pilot with a fresh line check who just stepped from an aircraft?
Or someone who claims to be a TRE, but hasn't flown in almost 2 years?
It's not the same.
If it were, we could train young pilots in the Sim, call them Captains and release them to the line.
I am a TRE myself, but in the helicopter world.
The Sim is much different from the real helicopter.
Plus a TRE does not get any "flying time" - if you grab the controls as an examiner, it means the check pilot failed...
So you cold only claim your instructor time.. But then again:
Instructing is not flying time.
It means you are spending hours talking to somebody how to do it, instead of doing it all yourself over and over again.
Ask yourself:
Who would you hire:
A pilot with a fresh line check who just stepped from an aircraft?
Or someone who claims to be a TRE, but hasn't flown in almost 2 years?
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A Sim is a Sim, and the real thing is the real thing.
It's not the same.
If it were, we could train young pilots in the Sim, call them Captains and release them to the line.
I am a TRE myself, but in the helicopter world.
The Sim is much different from the real helicopter.
Plus a TRE does not get any "flying time" - if you grab the controls as an examiner, it means the check pilot failed...
So you cold only claim your instructor time.. But then again:
Instructing is not flying time.
It means you are spending hours talking to somebody how to do it, instead of doing it all yourself over and over again.
Ask yourself:
Who would you hire:
A pilot with a fresh line check who just stepped from an aircraft?
Or someone who claims to be a TRE, but hasn't flown in almost 2 years?
It's not the same.
If it were, we could train young pilots in the Sim, call them Captains and release them to the line.
I am a TRE myself, but in the helicopter world.
The Sim is much different from the real helicopter.
Plus a TRE does not get any "flying time" - if you grab the controls as an examiner, it means the check pilot failed...
So you cold only claim your instructor time.. But then again:
Instructing is not flying time.
It means you are spending hours talking to somebody how to do it, instead of doing it all yourself over and over again.
Ask yourself:
Who would you hire:
A pilot with a fresh line check who just stepped from an aircraft?
Or someone who claims to be a TRE, but hasn't flown in almost 2 years?
Having said that we are pilots and we are meant to be flying up in the air, no question about that. To date I have logged approximately 16500 hours of which about 11000 as PIC, all on widebody. I do fly general aviation in my free time. So yes, I have been spending some time away from the ground and know the added values of real flying vs sim time. And that’s why I can comfortably say that the “last flight within 12 months” is completely useless ; somebody could have been grounded for years, flown for a few weeks, and meet the criteria... whereas you can have highly qualified professionals who have spent 20+ years in the air and have lost their jobs because of bankruptcies, covid, medical, whatever and they become automatically disqualified from applying anywhere because of a stupid and useless rule designed by some HR with no clue about the flying job. You ask me who I would hire ? The answer is pretty simple : whoever gets through the assessment. Would I call myself or anyone else in my position for an interview ? Definitely. I haven’t stoped flying commercially to open up a restaurant but because of the pandemic, and as a freelance trainer/examiner I need to be in the books all the time. So I guess I’d give myself and whoever is in my position a chance to be checked on what sort of terrible professionals we must have become after a “stop” of 18 months over a 24 years long career ;-)
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I think when the industry eventually picks up in a big way, airlines will be forced to alter their arbitrary recency requirements.
Rather than minimum X hours in the previous 12 months...
I think(hope) any sensible airline will change it to minimum X hours between March 2019 and February 2020, or the previous 12 months, whichever is greater.
Totally get your frustration in the meantime.
.
Rather than minimum X hours in the previous 12 months...
I think(hope) any sensible airline will change it to minimum X hours between March 2019 and February 2020, or the previous 12 months, whichever is greater.
Totally get your frustration in the meantime.
.
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I think when the industry eventually picks up in a big way, airlines will be forced to alter their arbitrary recency requirements.
Rather than minimum X hours in the previous 12 months...
I think(hope) any sensible airline will change it to minimum X hours between March 2019 and February 2020, or the previous 12 months, whichever is greater.
Totally get your frustration in the meantime.
.
Rather than minimum X hours in the previous 12 months...
I think(hope) any sensible airline will change it to minimum X hours between March 2019 and February 2020, or the previous 12 months, whichever is greater.
Totally get your frustration in the meantime.
.
Anyhow fingers crossed for all of those who have been hit by this effin’ mess and are grounded despite being good professionals.
cheers.
Only half a speed-brake
Do you teach students the vital skill of objective self-evaluation? How to check if at all we were doing the right thing, exactly in those moments when we are convinced to the bone we are excelling and saving the day?
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Didn’t get your question. Try to rephrase it differently perhaps ?
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Because line flying is a completely different animal.
I have known several excellent sim. Instructors who spent too much time in the sim. and were hard work on the line.
You are never going to get credit for third seat in the sim. time.
Simples.
I have known several excellent sim. Instructors who spent too much time in the sim. and were hard work on the line.
You are never going to get credit for third seat in the sim. time.
Simples.
Covid is a bastard. But Nickler you chose to leave EK, you got a job, albeit not the one you want right now. Spare a thought for the hundreds/ thousands with nothing. Cathay Dragon pilots for example didn't chose to leave their 20 year gig. I once worked for an airline whose greatest concern for recruitment was not recency but gender, go figure that.
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Covid is a bastard. But Nickler you chose to leave EK, you got a job, albeit not the one you want right now. Spare a thought for the hundreds/ thousands with nothing. Cathay Dragon pilots for example didn't chose to leave their 20 year gig. I once worked for an airline whose greatest concern for recruitment was not recency but gender, go figure that.
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Not arguing with you on the idiocy of certain "EASA-rules"......i have my thoughts on them, and they are definitely not working "pro" aviation.
Especially on the helicopter side, EASA rules and regulations are killing and kicking companies out of business like there is no tomorrow-only because the majority of people now working there are people who were rejected by the same companies before...
While the FAA has the motto "Everything that we haven´t forbidden is allowed", EASA thinks that "Everything we have not specifically approved in writing is prohibited"....
Especially on the helicopter side, EASA rules and regulations are killing and kicking companies out of business like there is no tomorrow-only because the majority of people now working there are people who were rejected by the same companies before...
While the FAA has the motto "Everything that we haven´t forbidden is allowed", EASA thinks that "Everything we have not specifically approved in writing is prohibited"....