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Unusual attitudes

Old 5th Dec 2020, 15:07
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Unusual attitudes

This is from TrainingCom spring 2020

"Unusual Attitude Recoveries vs UPRT We are receiving feedback from examiners who are starting to observe test applicants recovering from conventional unusual attitudes (UA’s) using Upset Prevention and Recovery Technique (UPRT) protocols. So, rather than seeing “power, roll, pitch”, the examiners are seeing “push, roll, power, stabilise”. The reason for the conventional UA recovery technique being used in light twin and single engine aeroplanes is to achieve “minimum height loss”. Whereas, minimum height loss using the UPRT techniques is not a priority as they have been developed for jet aircraft, especially those with underslung engines where the thrust-pitch couple causes problems. Both instructors and examiners need to understand that the use of UPRT procedures is not appropriate in light twin or single engine aeroplanes during UA recoveries because minimum height loss is the overriding priority and the power-pitch couple is usually small. Therefore, it is important that instructors continue to teach the conventional UA recovery technique and that examiners brief the applicant on their requirements and expectations during the test or check. Confusion and misunderstandings over what is required could lead to a UA recovery being judged as unsatisfactory and then a subsequent Reg 6 appeal from the applicant who had been taught that UPRT procedures were appropriate."

I think it is a misunderstanding to assert that that minimum height loss during UPRT is not a priority. If an aeroplane gets into an unusual attitude at low altitude it seems to me desirable to recover with minimum height loss whether the aeroplane is a jet transport or a SEP. The authors of the AUPRTA were concerned that improper emphasis on attempting to minimize height loss during stall recovery could lead to pilots using incorrect technique and failing to recover from the stall, thereby ultimately failing to minimize height loss. This is why during UPRT stall event training the point is made that some height loss will be inevitable during stall recovery and in the case of a jet aircraft stalling at high altitude the inevitable height loss could be considerable. It is also why GM1 FCL.745.A (i) includes the training task "accept altitude loss" during recovery from stall event. "Accept altitude loss" is included only in the recovery from stall event exercise and not in any other UPRT exercise.

"Push, roll, power (or thrust), stabilise" is not a procedure to be applied blindly. It is a strategy to guide decision making during an upset event. It can only be effective when used with proper knowledge of how to apply it to different upset events and properly understanding the handling characteristics of the particular aircraft type. I think when applied correctly the strategy should be applicable to all fixed wing aircraft.

For example, GM1 FCL.745.A (g), nose low recovery, includes the enabling objectives:
(C) unloading to increase roll rate; (D) avoid ‘rolling-pull’; and (E) accept the priority of rolling to wings level first, before reducing power and before pulling.
If these are applicable to nose low or spiral dive recovery in a King Air, why would they not also be applicable in a DA 42?


Last edited by Rivet gun; 5th Dec 2020 at 15:56.
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Old 5th Dec 2020, 16:31
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I don't know how I missed this in the Spring Training.com. I'm shocked to see the CAA once again spouting this nonsense. It takes me back to the nineties when some on the CAA Instructor Panel would say power then attitude for the stall recovery when others would scream in despair and demand attitude then power for the recovery. It was always obvious to me that if the wing was stalled then pitch and unstall the wing was the priority. The priority is the problem. As a fireman will tell you: try to put out the fire first then your wasting valuable time. You must isolate the source first be it fuel or electricity etc or the fire will continue and you may lose control of it. A plumber will tell you to turn off the water first before fixing the leak or you will be quickly in a flood.

This stuff from some at the CAA (I doubt that it has been agreed by all) comes from a light piston twin recovery technique promoted by certain individuals. With a considerable amount of excess power available it is possible to quickly gain speed and thus reduce the A of A that way whilst being able to continue the climb. It was never explained by these people what you should do if you didn't have large amounts of excess power to play with or as with a turbine there may be comparatively some lag.

With regards to roll then it should never be attempted until you have gained speed. The ailerons may still have some effectiveness at the stall but this will be marginal and easily miss-handled. Therefore it is important to gain speed before attempting to roll level. This is made clear in all spin recovery techniques so why should some believe this is to be different for a non spinning stall recovery.

Last edited by Fl1ingfrog; 5th Dec 2020 at 17:00.
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Old 5th Dec 2020, 17:17
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I tend to think that we need to think - whether in UPRT, UA, or a simple stall, that there are two priorities.

Primary priority - recovery to normal control

Secondary priority - minimisation of height loss.

I prefer in my own flying, teaching, and research to think in terms of primary and secondary. Both matter, but if you don't resolve the primary, the secondary is irrelevant.

G
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Old 5th Dec 2020, 18:53
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So, what was wrong with the way we were taught, and practiced on theRAF when I was a QFI, 1960s.

Speed low or decreasing, add power.

Speed high or increasing , reduce power,

Roll till turn needle comes off stops. ( it was done on limited panel , assumed ah had toppled)

Pull or push til vsi comes off stops, or altimeter reverses.

CHECK, you are NEAR straight and level .

Adjust and trim for level flight.

It worked !
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Old 5th Dec 2020, 19:48
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I feel like I'm in an unusual attitude reading the quoted paragraph. I thought they were talking about one unusual attitude (like upside down) recovery technique vs. another, but they were really talking about stalls? What's happening?
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Old 5th Dec 2020, 20:03
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The ICAO publication describing UPRT is Doc 10011 AN/506 MANUAL ON AEROPLANE UPSET PREVENTION AND RECOVERY TRAINING

In chapter 3 it explicitly details recovery for what traditionally in flight training was called "unusual attitudes" .

Spiral dive In this manoeuvre, sometimes called a graveyard spiral, the aeroplane is at a high bank angle and descending. Trainees will learn in this situation that applying up-elevator in an attempt to arrest both the increasing speed and sink rate causes the spiral to tighten. The skill learned is that it is imperative to get the wings close to level before beginning any pitching-up manoeuvre. Trainees must decrease the bank angle and then apply up-elevator to recover. If g-loading is large the pilot will need to first unload some g to regain adequate roll control for wings levelling

The on-aeroplane training should include a variety of developing and developed upset conditions, with focus on pitch, power, roll, and yaw. This on-aeroplane training should include demonstrations and practice for various upset scenarios, to include nose-high and nose-low scenarios with various bank-angles and speeds. High bank-angle recovery exercises should be practiced in both nose-high and nose-low situations. This training should be done in both visual and simulated instrument conditions to allow the trainee to practice recognition and recovery under both conditions as well as experience and recognize some of the physiological factors related to each.
unquote

I would suggest this is entirely consistent with how it has always been taught. If a student in a DA 42 is using "push, roll, stabilize, power" in a spiral dive then the problem is not UPRT, it is they were not trained in a manner consistent with UPRT SOP's.
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Old 5th Dec 2020, 20:27
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I entirely agree with RetiredBA/By and Big Pistons forever. All of what is outlined in the ICAO quotation above is fully detailed in the steep turn training exercises within the ab-initio syllabus. Can anybody tell me what "upset" actually means in this context; i.e. why was this word chosen, does anybody know? I am familiar with the ICAO and the EASA UPRT syllabus, it isn't that that I'm after.

So in old fashioned terms;
Today you will learn to understand the relationship of power plus attitude such that the required outcome is predictable and never in doubt.
Today you will learn to understand the application of the flaps and undercarriage (if applicable) such that the outcome is predictable and never in doubt.
Today you will learn to understand, prevent and recover from an unintended stall such that the required outcome is predictable and never in doubt.
Today you will learn to understand, prevent and recover from an unintended onset of a spin such that the required outcome is predictable and never in doubt. ,
Today you will learn to understand, prevent and recover from an unintended spiral dive such that the required outcome is predictable and never in doubt.

Now, it is true to say that an important part of upset training, they say, is the response to surprise. But, isn't anything described as 'unintended' going to be a surprise? What is it that the advocates of upset training do not understand so have reinvented the wheel or is this me and obviously some others somehow left behind in the dark?

Last edited by Fl1ingfrog; 5th Dec 2020 at 21:04.
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Old 5th Dec 2020, 23:16
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A good while ago I spent a winter working on a desk job in Eastern Canada. I decided to get a checkout at the local flying club. As it turned out the airplane I was given was a C150 Aerobat . The instructor doing the check out was a low time officious twa*t and I was getting pretty fed up by the half way point with the final straw being the “surprise” unusual attitude I was warned to expect at any time. The instructor set up a mild spiral dive and in an imperial tone ordered me to recover. So I continued the roll to knife edge, ruddered the nose to the horizon and did a quarter slow roll to level.

The instructor looked at me with very wide eyes and said “ What was that !” . My reply “ That is how pilots who are confident in their ability to fly the airplane no matter what attitude it is, do”

The flight ended quickly and he did not have much more to say......


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Old 6th Dec 2020, 00:01
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Originally Posted by Rivet gun View Post
This is from TrainingCom spring 2020

"Unusual Attitude Recoveries vs UPRT We are receiving feedback from examiners who are starting to observe test applicants recovering from conventional unusual attitudes (UA’s) using Upset Prevention and Recovery Technique (UPRT) protocols. ...
I like the way the FAA does things with Airplane Flying Handbook (FAA-H-8083-3B) Chapter 4 "Maintaining Aircraft Control: Upset Prevention and Recovery Training" which includes this discussion "Unusual Attitudes Versus Upsets" with one suite of recovery templates, nothing to confuse applicants or examiners.
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Old 6th Dec 2020, 04:34
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Originally Posted by Fl1ingfrog View Post
I entirely agree with RetiredBA/By and Big Pistons forever. All of what is outlined in the ICAO quotation above is fully detailed in the steep turn training exercises within the ab-initio syllabus. Can anybody tell me what "upset" actually means in this context; i.e. why was this word chosen, does anybody know? I am familiar with the ICAO and the EASA UPRT syllabus, it isn't that that I'm after.

So in old fashioned terms;
Today you will learn to understand the relationship of power plus attitude such that the required outcome is predictable and never in doubt.
Today you will learn to understand the application of the flaps and undercarriage (if applicable) such that the outcome is predictable and never in doubt.
Today you will learn to understand, prevent and recover from an unintended stall such that the required outcome is predictable and never in doubt.
Today you will learn to understand, prevent and recover from an unintended onset of a spin such that the required outcome is predictable and never in doubt. ,
Today you will learn to understand, prevent and recover from an unintended spiral dive such that the required outcome is predictable and never in doubt.

Now, it is true to say that an important part of upset training, they say, is the response to surprise. But, isn't anything described as 'unintended' going to be a surprise? What is it that the advocates of upset training do not understand so have reinvented the wheel or is this me and obviously some others somehow left behind in the dark?
I think there is an important element missing there - that is to recognise (the onset or existence of the stall or UA). I don’t think “understand’ is the right word.

Recognise what’s going wrong and sort it. The problem is trying to set a single method for every situation.
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Old 6th Dec 2020, 04:41
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Originally Posted by Fl1ingfrog View Post
Can anybody tell me what "upset" actually means in this context; i.e. why was this word chosen, does anybody know? I am familiar with the ICAO and the EASA UPRT syllabus, it isn't that that I'm after.
The FAA's Airplane Flying Handbook seems to answer that: "The term “upset” was formally introduced by an industry work group in 2004 in the “Pilot Guide to Airplane Upset Recovery,” which is one part of the “Airplane Upset Recovery Training Aid.” The working group was primarily focused on large transport airplanes and sought to come up with one term to describe an “unusual attitude” or “loss of control,” for example, and to generally describe specific parameters as part of its definition."
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Old 6th Dec 2020, 05:44
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BA/BY,

The problem with NOT releasing G, and rolling until the needle comes off the stops, is that the turn needle may stay stuck there.
You must release the G first, and then roll. Roll no matter how slow you are - you aren't going to stall.
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Old 6th Dec 2020, 08:39
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Originally Posted by RetiredBA/BY View Post
So, what was wrong with the way we were taught, and practiced on theRAF when I was a QFI, 1960s.

Speed low or decreasing, add power.

Speed high or increasing , reduce power,

Roll till turn needle comes off stops. ( it was done on limited panel , assumed ah had toppled)

Pull or push til vsi comes off stops, or altimeter reverses.

CHECK, you are NEAR straight and level .

Adjust and trim for level flight.

It worked !
What's wrong with that is potentially applying aileron in an aeroplane at significantly more than 1g, creating a load case for which the wings were not designed.

Structurally, the unload, then roll aspect of the modern UPRT is paramount because most people are not flying overengineered military training aeroplanes.

G
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Old 6th Dec 2020, 09:07
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So how do you propose to remove bank without using ailerons ?
Use of rudder is a no no, think JFK Airbus with lost fin. .... and as Dai Davies says in his classic book, when recovering from an upset STAY OFF THE RUDDER !
Any competent pilot, flying a military trainer or a large jet, should know the need for smooth gentle control inputs in that situation and understand rolling G !

....and sure , any high G situation requires one to unload to a certain degree, but do any pilots get into an uncommanded high G situation without first recognising its onset ?

Back to my breakfast coffee !
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Old 6th Dec 2020, 09:48
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Originally Posted by David J Pilkington View Post
I like the way the FAA does things with Airplane Flying Handbook (FAA-H-8083-3B) Chapter 4 "Maintaining Aircraft Control: Upset Prevention and Recovery Training" which includes this discussion "Unusual Attitudes Versus Upsets" with one suite of recovery templates, nothing to confuse applicants or examiners.
Thanks for this link. It seems mostly consistent with EASA UPRT except for the spiral dive recovery template. In the spiral dive recovery template the first action is reduce power to idle. This directly contradicts GM1 FCL.745.A (g) (3) (E) which requires to accept the priority of rolling to wings level first, before reducing power and before pulling. It also contradicts the nose low recovery templates in the AUPRTA and FAA AC120-111. It is this kind of contradiction which confuses applicants and examiners.

I appreciate that jet transports with low thrust line under wing engines may need different power handling in a nose high low speed situation, but I don't understand why spiral dive recovery should not be the same for all fixed wing aircraft.

Edit: in a fixed pitch prop SEP there is the engine over speed risk to consider.

Last edited by Rivet gun; 6th Dec 2020 at 10:42.
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Old 6th Dec 2020, 10:03
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With regards to roll then it should never be attempted until you have gained speed
Not necessarily so.

Extract from the Boeing 737 Flight Crew Training Manual under heading Nose High, Wings Level.

If normal pitch control inputs do not stop an increasing pitch rate, rolling the airplane to a bank angle that starts the nose down should work. Bank angles of about 45 degrees up to a maximum of 60 degrees could be needed.
With airspeed low as stickshaker onset, normal roll controls - up to full deflection of ailerons and spoilers - may be used. The rolling maneuver changes the pitch rate into a turning maneuver, allowing the pitch to decrease. Finally, if normal pitch control then roll control is ineffective, careful rudder input in the direction of the desired roll may be required to induce a rolling maneuver for recovery.

Only a small amount of rudder is needed. Too much rudder applied too quickly or held too long may result in loss of lateral and directional control. Because of the low energy condition, pilots should exercise caution when applying rudder. The reduced pitch attitude allows airspeed to increase, thereby improving elevator and aileron control effectiveness. After the pitch attitude and airspeed return to a desired range the pilot can reduce angle of bank with normal lateral flight controls and return the airplane to normal flight.

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Old 6th Dec 2020, 10:05
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Originally Posted by RetiredBA/BY View Post
when recovering from an upset STAY OFF THE RUDDER !
Boeing allows judicious use of rudder in a nose high situation only as a last resort if aileron control is ineffective. This from 737 NG FCTM:

"Finally, if normal pitch control then roll control is ineffective, careful rudder input in the
direction of the desired roll may be required to induce a rolling maneuver for
recovery.
Only a small amount of rudder is needed. Too much rudder applied too quickly or
held too long may result in loss of lateral and directional control. Because of the
low energy condition, pilots should exercise caution when applying rudder."

Other than that STAY OFF THE RUDDER!

(edited to say Centaurus got in first with exactly the same quote!)
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Old 6th Dec 2020, 10:19
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Originally Posted by RetiredBA/BY View Post
So how do you propose to remove bank without using ailerons ?
Use of rudder is a no no, think JFK Airbus with lost fin. .... and as Dai Davies says in his classic book, when recovering from an upset STAY OFF THE RUDDER !
Any competent pilot, flying a military trainer or a large jet, should know the need for smooth gentle control inputs in that situation and understand rolling G !

....and sure , any high G situation requires one to unload to a certain degree, but do any pilots get into an uncommanded high G situation without first recognising its onset ?

Back to my breakfast coffee !
Push to unload, then when somewhere between 0 and 1g, use the ailerons to roll.

It's the sequencing that is structurally critical.

G
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Old 6th Dec 2020, 10:57
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The other problem is students being presented for a UPRT course (often carried out by a contractor) when they are not at an appropriate stage of training. It should be post IR test/pre-Type Rating.

If a student is presented earlier, there would perhaps be an expectation from an examiner that they are to carry out a light aircraft UA during test when they have just spent a few days having that beaten out of them by a UPRT instructor.
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Old 6th Dec 2020, 11:26
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There is a difference between the best stall recovery in whether you are flying a light straight wing or a larger swept wing. With a swept wing, the inboard wing stalls first and so the ailerons will still be unstalled and effective until the stall deepens. I had a big argument with the CAA back in the days when we were allowed to train on a actual aircraft - telling them that their preferred stall recovery was only applicable on light straight wing aircraft. The times that a stall is most likely is probably on short finals due wake turbulence or downdraughts. Pushing the stick forwards would mean a certain crash. The only recovery from this scenario is apply power and use aileron to level the wings. For even suggesting this, the CAA made me retake my TRE check!
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