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U.K. training after 31.12.20

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U.K. training after 31.12.20

Old 29th Oct 2020, 18:14
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U.K. training after 31.12.20

Dear members,
so as you’re aware U.K. is leaving EASA at the end of the year, what will this mean for former U.K. license holders who converted to a EASA license if they wish to undergo any training in the U.K.?

for example would an Irish EASA ATPL holder be able to conduct and undergo training for a flight instructor course in the U.K. after this cut off date without having a national U.K. license ? And if not how long would it take to get a U.K. national ATPL license ...
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Old 29th Oct 2020, 18:24
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It really should not be a problem however; the question is will other States accept the training. At this stage nobody knows.
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Old 1st Nov 2020, 11:58
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Will depend on what the ATO does some are switching their ATO registration to another member state, if they have they can continue to provide training for EASA ratings.
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Old 1st Nov 2020, 14:49
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Will depend on what the ATO does some are switching their ATO registration to another member state

Can you name any? I can't think of anything more ridiculous.

In the event that there is not a final agreement with the EU the CAA have given no hint of what its plans will be and are keeping things very close to their chests.
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Old 1st Nov 2020, 19:54
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Can you name any?
Does dumping the UK ATO after buying a non-UK ATO also count?

Airways Aviation GBR.ATO-0114 based in Oxford (UK) with fair weather base Huesca (Sp) and FR.ATO-0012 (previously ESMA) in Montpellier (F) respectively.
Lots of students and staff duped in OXF and HSK.
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Old 2nd Nov 2020, 08:59
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Can you name any?
There are currently 33 UK ATOs that have applied for approval from EASA and this doesn't include those who have applied directly to individual member states.
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Old 2nd Nov 2020, 09:37
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I think 32 now since Flybe is on the list...
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Old 3rd Nov 2020, 13:27
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Just for the numbers

There are currently 33 UK ATOs that have applied for approval from EASA
I think 32 now since Flybe is on the list...
I think 31 now since Airways Aviation EASA.GBR.ATO.0114 is on the list ...

Though you could still count them in when including the dump/buy scenario.
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Old 4th Nov 2020, 12:09
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I don't understand why the EASA listed 32/33 applicants are rushing to have their UK ATOs approved by EASA after the 31st December, whilst remaining within the UK. At the moment all UK ATOs are aligned with EASA requirements and this is not going to change immediately. We are yet to know what if any agreements will be made between the UK and the EU. Should there be no agreement then over time there is the possibility of divergence. Once the UK is a 'third country' without agreement then the EASA approval process needs to be assessed as such and at a great expense. If divergence takes place in the future these ATOs will be faced with being one or the other or being a complicated and possibly an impossible mix.

Some years ago during the early days of EASA an attempt was proposed to demand that all EU based pilots and workshops etc, needed to have a EASA approval. This was clearly an anti-american move. It was pointed out by the US that the EASA standards were very different from those of the FAA and it was impossible to simultaneously satisfy both standards. It was also pointed out that the value to the EU from the FAA establishments and personnelle ran into billions of dollars each year. Subsequently the proposals were dropped by EASA.
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Old 4th Nov 2020, 14:53
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I don't understand why the EASA listed 32/33 applicants are rushing to have their UK ATOs approved by EASA after the 31st December, whilst remaining within the UK. At the moment all UK ATOs are aligned with EASA requirements and this is not going to change immediately. We are yet to know what if any agreements will be made between the UK and the EU. Should there be no agreement then over time there is the possibility of divergence. Once the UK is a 'third country' without agreement then the EASA approval process needs to be assessed as such and at a great expense. If divergence takes place in the future these ATOs will be faced with being one or the other or being a complicated and possibly an impossible mix.
It is not so hard to understand. Even if the British ATOs remain aligned with EASA regulations, the UK CAA won't be under the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice and EASA's oversight. British ATO's need certainty and can't wait till the two parties reach an agreement and since it seems we are going straight into a no-deal Brexit, their only option is to apply for an EASA ATO licence.
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Old 4th Nov 2020, 16:21
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It is not so hard to understand. Even if the British ATOs remain aligned with EASA regulations, the UK CAA won't be under the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice and EASA's oversight. British ATO's need certainty and can't wait till the two parties reach an agreement and since it seems we are going straight into a no-deal Brexit, their only option is to apply for an EASA ATO licence.
Are you arguing that the FAA and the USA itself are under the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice? There can be no assumption that an agreement will not be reached although I understand the concern. Otherwise I believe I made my concerns clear.
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Old 4th Nov 2020, 17:29
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Can you cite an example whereby a country automatically recognizes a licence from another country without a conversion procedure? What is clear is that UK schools don't want to lose their business and for them remaining in the EASA system is crucial and they made it clear a long ago when they asked the UK government to let the UK CAA remain an EASA member. Are you arguing that 32 British HOT made the wrong call by applying for an EASA ATO certificate?
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Old 4th Nov 2020, 19:22
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Are there any countries outside of the EU/EEA that automatically accept EASA licenses could also be asked. But then, this is not a quiz, is it? Each organisation will make up its own mind and for its own reasons of which I'm obviously not aware. I merely expressed my own doubts and concerns and you jjohn have added nothing that could allay my doubts. Perhaps you will.

It is a well established that each member of ICAO recognises each others license for overflight. ICAO also recognises that each member may require a pilot of another state to comply with its own specific additional requirements to pilot an aircraft registered with it. This varies and may be a simple matter of a form to complete or perhaps further training and/or examination for those things not previously undertaken/demonstrated. It seems to me therefore that a simple exam paper or flight exercise during UK training should be enough to demonstrate equivalence on completion at a UK ATO. A process that EASA already has in place and that the Swiss trained pilots are fully aware.
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Old 5th Nov 2020, 09:22
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Originally Posted by Fl1ingfrog View Post
Are there any countries outside of the EU/EEA that automatically accept EASA licenses could also be asked. But then, this is not a quiz, is it? Each organisation will make up its own mind and for its own reasons of which I'm obviously not aware. I merely expressed my own doubts and concerns and you jjohn have added nothing that could allay my doubts. Perhaps you will.
Overflight is not the issue here. I don't even know why you mention it. The main issue here is training, EASA will not automatically recognize any training from an organization outside the EASA system. Despite the many agreements between the FAA and the EU, you still have to go through a lenghty process when converting from one system to the other. Like in my case when I had to convert my FAA licenses and ratings into EASA. It was more than a simple flight exercise with an examiner and exam paper as you imply, and it was more expensive. So why have your students undertake more training/examinations or fill out more paperwork when they can have the option to do all of their training under EASA from the beginning and save them the bureaucratic trouble? Since you mention Swiss-trained pilots, I don't know if you are aware that Switzerland is a full member of EASA as 3 more non-EU countries like Iceland, Lichenstein and Norway. The UK was given that option, but decided otherwise.
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Old 5th Nov 2020, 09:55
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I don't understand why the EASA listed 32/33 applicants are rushing to have their UK ATOs approved by EASA after the 31st December
Quite simply because from 1 Jan 2021, unless they are approved by EASA or one of the EU member states, they will not be able to provide training for the issue, revalidation or renewal of an EASA licence, rating or certificate.
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Old 5th Nov 2020, 10:01
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Switzerland is an EASA Member state so doesn't compare to the new situation facing the UK.

Have look at EASA validation or conversion requirements and it will scare off most people. CPL conversion requires extra training of 7-25 hrs depending on how many hours you have. CPL TKI as determined by a HoT or if wanting to go for an ATPL do a modular ATPL course and resit all exams. Then for an IR a minimum of 15 hours instruction. You'll also need to do a CPL and/or IR skills test. Validation of a CPL requires a minimum of 700 hrs depending on what you want it for.

If a student signed for a school to gain an EASA "frozen" ATPL, then the school has an obligation to provide that course. While the UK might be aligned with EASA regs, EASA doesn't have oversight and there is nothing to stop the UK from diverging. So EASA doesn't have any choice and neither do flights schools, they want the biggest pool of potential customers.

Last edited by Edgington; 5th Nov 2020 at 18:49.
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Old 5th Nov 2020, 17:16
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I mention Switzerland only because it has never been a member of the EU nor the EEA. Before joining EASA it had a very simple agreement whereby a pilot was, in the main, simply required to complete paperwork as were UK CPLs and PPLs although the UK were full members of the EU and founding members of EASA. Very rational because the pilots training and background were of similar standards. It should not be beyond a possibility that such arrangements can be agreed and may even happen yet. We may even remain a member of EASA, who knows. The UK CAA have already stated that they will recognise the EASA training for at least two years. EASA have so far not reciprocated but this is irrational other than to be difficult. It cannot be ignored that many UK owned schools are already established, wholly or in part, within the EU countries and particularly in Spain and increasingly in the eastern european block. There are considerable tax advantages to benefit from operating and/or training in low tax countries such as Spain, USA, Poland and Czechoslovakia for example. The EU is not a level playing field in this regard. I do not need the current pilot qualifications and training explained, I've been immersed in it for 35 years. What I don't yet fully understand is the rushed commercial decisions these schools are making in the short term which may lead to considerable complications for them in the foreseeable future.

The EASA conversion standards that are quoted are completely unreasonable and irrational. They are simply anti-american and are there for no other purpose. Note: there is no such thing as: a CPL IR because they are two very separate qualifications, The use of the CPL is the choice of the holder, it makes no difference to the training and the testing. The 'frozen ATPL' that has been referred to doesn't exist.

Last edited by Fl1ingfrog; 5th Nov 2020 at 17:32.
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Old 5th Nov 2020, 17:28
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The UK CAA did say that they would recognise EASA certificates for up to 2 years. Recently, however, they have backed out of this and said that they will only recognise certificates 'current and valid' at the end of the transition period. In other words, previously you could plan to take EASA CPL IR flight tests after Jan 2021 and have it added to your UK licence, now you can not. Billie Bob has explained why UK ATOs are setting up the insurance of either a direct EASA approval or approval through (in) an EASA State. I can assure you these commercial decisions are not rushed, but are carefully considered. I do not agree that it would lead to complications.

IMHO the UK CAA have shot themselves in the foot by failing to consult properly with ATOs before they make decisions, but we have learned not to rely on them.
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Old 5th Nov 2020, 19:06
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IMHO the UK CAA have shot themselves in the foot by failing to consult properly with ATOs before they make decisions, but we have learned not to rely on them.
Alex, only a fool would disagree with your statement. But, could it be that the EASA are not, so far, prepared to reciprocate? Should the vast majority of UK ATOs teaching CPL and IRs align themselves to EASA: approved, inspected and overseen by a foreign state then that will soon become intolerable. Unless there is a reciprocity where all can operate smoothly to a mutual benefit. EASA only represents a small part of the worlds NAAs. The vast majority of NAAs remain wholly in line with ICAO and therefore recognise each ICAO states qualifications so far as they go. Where there are differences only these need to be resolved. That is not unreasonable in my view.

We shouldn't spend too much time only contemplating our navels because there is more than just aviation to resolve with brexit. A major part of the current ongoing negotiations with the EU is the reciprocal recognition of professional qualifications. Should aviation be part of that then neither the EASA nor our CAA will have choices other than to reach a mutual agreement.

Last edited by Fl1ingfrog; 5th Nov 2020 at 19:21.
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Old 5th Nov 2020, 21:52
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It could be as simple as you say, but the problem is the EU is very good at protecting it's internal market. Having mutual recognition of of a third country, that while currently aligned may diverge from EASA rules, over whom they have no control, who doesn't pay in to their budget and who won't accept rulings of the ECJ. Don't think they believe they have a choice.

With the current crisis and many EU pilots losing their jobs. They will protect EU pilots from competition by British pilots.
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