U.K. training after 31.12.20
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Not quite sure what you are arguing. Of course EASA have not so far reciprocated, it's the EU negotiating position. And what? As businesses we arrange our affairs with respect to reality, not by staring at our navels considering what would benifit the world in the long term. If the politicians want to arrange mutual recognition, let them. If they don't, let them. They don't help us.
Well, although 33 or so organisations are a large number they are not representative of the total who have not applied to EASA ahead of December 31st. You have explained well the likely reasons of the 33 but why not the others. Have Bristol Groundschool applied I can't recognise them on the list? There are not that many of the large flying schools and colleges on the list including those who provide for integrated courses which are normally the choice of airlines. I recognise that the operating name is not the same as a trading name so it could be I've not picked them up.
If EASA were not to recognize UK flight training without an extensive and expensive conversion why should the UK not treat EASA the same. We could have a silly situation: those who have trained for the EASA licences and ratings at a UK EASA approved school would not be able to apply for a job with a UK based airline without first converting to the UK licences. I don't know the answers to all this I'm simply expressing a concern that things could get messy.
If EASA were not to recognize UK flight training without an extensive and expensive conversion why should the UK not treat EASA the same. We could have a silly situation: those who have trained for the EASA licences and ratings at a UK EASA approved school would not be able to apply for a job with a UK based airline without first converting to the UK licences. I don't know the answers to all this I'm simply expressing a concern that things could get messy.
Last edited by Fl1ingfrog; 6th Nov 2020 at 08:14.
The list that I linked to includes only those ATOs that have applied direct to EASA for approval. It does not include an unknown number who have obtained approval from individual EU member states. It will be interesting to see how many UK-based and licensed airlines are still around to accept applications from UK-licensed pilots once the dust settles. Of course, there is also the issue of how many UK pilots, although holding EASA licences, will retain the right to work in the EU.
It was a regular event in the past years for our UK CAA inspectors going to the US to inspect and issue EASA approvals. Its been my understanding that the EASA stopped that process stating that an individual member state could not give an approval to a 'third country'. They subsequently inspected and approved ATOs themselves. I don't know whether EASA created a department or a staff role to do this or subcontracted out as and when required.
The UK is already a third country: so how then can, let us say, France or a German NAA travel to the UK, inspect and give an EASA approval? It is my understanding that a ATO will need to apply to EASA directly for an approval as we are witnessing from the EASA list.
The UK is already a third country: so how then can, let us say, France or a German NAA travel to the UK, inspect and give an EASA approval? It is my understanding that a ATO will need to apply to EASA directly for an approval as we are witnessing from the EASA list.
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It could be as simple as you say, but the problem is the EU is very good at protecting it's internal market. Having mutual recognition of of a third country, that while currently aligned may diverge from EASA rules, over whom they have no control, who doesn't pay in to their budget and who won't accept rulings of the ECJ. Don't think they believe they have a choice.
Australia and New Zealand are an example but of course these are subject to the user friendly ICAO agreements.
It was mentioned earlier that perhaps the UK airlines will relocate to the EU with the jobs. Remember that in accordance with the ICAO world wide rules each state may grant preference for routes to its considered national airline: BA at Heathrow, KLM at Schiphol and Air France at Charles de Gaulle etc. The number of slots to destinations outside of the EU are where the major business is. If BA was to deregister from the UK they could lose their dominance at Heathrow and their routes. Since EASA came into being are there very many non british EASA pilots in BA or with our other UK airlines? It will be interesting to have data on this.
It was mentioned earlier that perhaps the UK airlines will relocate to the EU with the jobs. Remember that in accordance with the ICAO world wide rules each state may grant preference for routes to its considered national airline: BA at Heathrow, KLM at Schiphol and Air France at Charles de Gaulle etc. The number of slots to destinations outside of the EU are where the major business is. If BA was to deregister from the UK they could lose their dominance at Heathrow and their routes. Since EASA came into being are there very many non british EASA pilots in BA or with our other UK airlines? It will be interesting to have data on this.
DHLAir UK is a uk airline, based in the uk with pilots based either in the uk or Germany. It is a wholly owned subsidiary of DPDHL, a key part of DHL Express and operating on a UK AOC.
“Since EASA came into being are there very many non british EASA pilots in BA or with our other UK airlines? It will be interesting to have data on this.”
Was the question and in this case the answer is yes.
“Since EASA came into being are there very many non british EASA pilots in BA or with our other UK airlines? It will be interesting to have data on this.”
Was the question and in this case the answer is yes.
It was a regular event in the past years for our UK CAA inspectors going to the US to inspect and issue EASA approvals. Its been my understanding that the EASA stopped that process stating that an individual member state could not give an approval to a 'third country'. They subsequently inspected and approved ATOs themselves. I don't know whether EASA created a department or a staff role to do this or subcontracted out as and when required.
UK CAA inspectors used to go to the US and elsewhere to inspect and issue JAA approvals and, later, EASA approvals on behalf of FCLOA. Unfortunately, they made such a hash of the latter that the contract was withdrawn some years ago and oversight responsibility was shared between other EU member states.
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There is no doubt in my mind the UK CAA will oversight and grant ATO approvals both in the UK and overseas for training towards the UK licence just as they have always done, the big question is, when will they be able to do it? When will they have the manpower, expertise or the budget to get back to pre EASA days? By the same token, EASA Member States and EASA directly, will approve ATO's in the UK and elsewhere. Today, however, with the sharp downturn in demand, I suspect ALL will be less keen on the overseas approvals to try and help protect the home flight training industry. Thank goodness there are already a few ATO's established for the sake of the industry. Congrats to all ATO's who have planned ahead and have everything set to keep both their UK and EASA approvals after January 1st , they have done a smart thing for themselves and students alike and will preserve greater choice.
In the long run, I am also quite certain, there will be mutual recognition between UK & EASA. It just won't work otherwise. It was like this before EASA, pilots were able to migrate across Europe and elsewhere and get recognition for their licence with little fuss in most cases, although this was only when the airline could not fulfill their pilot demand from its own citizens....but come on, that is exactly the same with EASA....mutual licence yet, but a Brit would find it hard to get the job with Air France, just as an example, if there were an abundance of French nationals seeking the vacancy, not to mention the language requirements, fluency required! I concede Ryanair had the most to gain from an EASA licence with their many 'domiciles' in many countries, nevertheless, I don't believe for one minute that if demand was like it was before COVID, all UK trained and UK license holders would suddenly be ignored by Ryanair recruiters, they like everyone, were desperate for pilots.
The bigger problem is COVID, the downturn will lead to greater protectionism by all countries to preserve their ATO's, this equates to less choice for students and higher prices, the opposite of what is needed. Brexit is just the icing on the cake for the worst year ever in Aviation, so I for one will stay optimistic, it will all get worked out after the vaccine is proven and maybe all the government employees working from home will start to do their job!
SJ
In the long run, I am also quite certain, there will be mutual recognition between UK & EASA. It just won't work otherwise. It was like this before EASA, pilots were able to migrate across Europe and elsewhere and get recognition for their licence with little fuss in most cases, although this was only when the airline could not fulfill their pilot demand from its own citizens....but come on, that is exactly the same with EASA....mutual licence yet, but a Brit would find it hard to get the job with Air France, just as an example, if there were an abundance of French nationals seeking the vacancy, not to mention the language requirements, fluency required! I concede Ryanair had the most to gain from an EASA licence with their many 'domiciles' in many countries, nevertheless, I don't believe for one minute that if demand was like it was before COVID, all UK trained and UK license holders would suddenly be ignored by Ryanair recruiters, they like everyone, were desperate for pilots.
The bigger problem is COVID, the downturn will lead to greater protectionism by all countries to preserve their ATO's, this equates to less choice for students and higher prices, the opposite of what is needed. Brexit is just the icing on the cake for the worst year ever in Aviation, so I for one will stay optimistic, it will all get worked out after the vaccine is proven and maybe all the government employees working from home will start to do their job!
SJ
I wouldn't bett on that ! I recall the head of the JAA Exam Committee stating: " A beam, a plank, a spar, what is the difference?" when asked to explain a question on "wing spinning" (washout)
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