Flying Instructors & Examiners A place for instructors to communicate with one another because some of them get a bit tired of the attitude that instructing is the lowest form of aviation, as seems to prevail on some of the other forums!

PPE or not PPE

Old 6th Jul 2020, 21:14
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: UK
Posts: 106
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
PPE or not PPE

The other day i was at an airfield where the student was wearing a mask, the instructor was wearing a mask , goggles and a Tecnam mask and gloves.
However today at a different airfield, neither the student nor the instructor had any PPE, didn't see the aircraft being sanitized between flights either, it was like there was no virus to worry about, time warp to 6 months ago! What does your club insist on?
shorehamite is offline  
Old 6th Jul 2020, 22:21
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Down at the sharp pointy end, where all the weather is made.
Age: 74
Posts: 1,684
Likes: 0
Received 3 Likes on 3 Posts
We have a comprehensive risk assessment and a questionnaire that is completed by both the student and the instructor just before flight. The form notes the forehead temperature taken. The student and instructor then wash their hands and get in the aircraft. The student will conduct the walkround with the instructor watching from a socially distant place. With our PA28, we operate with all the fresh air vents fully open after start. The C42 has had its doors removed. Masks are optional. The student and instructor provide their own headset. Our medical professionals in the Club reckon that provided the questionnaire hasn't exposed any positives, then the risk is very low; we're sitting alongside each other, not facing. We're only starting with students we already know, who live locally and have a low likelihood of having mixed with people from up-country. Briefings and de-briefings are done at a reasonable distance with the doors open, or out of doors. invoices are sent by e-mail to be paid by BACS.
Yes, our aircraft are cleaned between flights. This has been a bit of a nightmare picking the right chemicals and processes for the different parts of the interior. Unfortunately, we think we might have done some damage to our Garmin displays using a chemical chosen because it won't damage the windscreen. We looked at the Technam mask and it seemed to be rather unwieldy to one of our medical professionals, so we haven't gone that route.

We think that we're adopting a common-sense approach using advice from our own club members - we've 2 surgeons and a GP with considerable A & E experience. Our risk assessments are written by another club member who has spent a lifetime assessing aviation hazards and risk mitigation.

TOO
TheOddOne is offline  
Old 7th Jul 2020, 06:39
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Uxbridge
Posts: 897
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
What he said, with everything agreed with the instructors and members concerned. Medical quality masks will be used though, at least to start with. We too have more than a handful of Health Professionals, all of whom agreed and helped figure out our process.

Having three separate areas, each with it's own front door, helps a lot.

MrAverage is offline  
Old 7th Jul 2020, 06:59
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Uxbridge
Posts: 897
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
And I think it's possible we co-operated somewhat in Kent back in the day, but my "Jim Rockford" skills are sometimes questionable.........
MrAverage is offline  
Old 7th Jul 2020, 16:37
  #5 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Springfield
Posts: 30
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by shorehamite
The other day i was at an airfield where the student was wearing a mask, the instructor was wearing a mask , goggles and a Tecnam mask and gloves.
I am I reading this correctly? Mask, gloves and tecnam mask? This seems uncomfortable at the least, questionable, in terms of being able to communicate, or even positively dangerous.

I asked a family member who genuinely works on the front line in the NHS about PPE in a clinical settings. Gloves are not routinely warn as they INCREASE the risk of transmission. They are used when dealing with bodily fluids. Simple hand-washing is the correct routine procedure.

As for getting advice from "health professionals", I remain sceptical. Healthcare professionals use, but may have no expert knowledge of PPE effectiveness. Similar to asking an airline pilot about the fire protection system on an airliner. He will be able to give you an overview, but he will have no expert knowledge on how the science of extinguisher chemically reacts or how the system is engineered. He is a pilot, not a chemist or a fire engineer.

Surely information should come from virologist who have studied PPE? At the moment there is very little scientific evidence to support the use of PPE in non clinical settings. It is worth noting that masks are primarily there to reduce the risk of bacterial infections to patients. Remember viruses are far smaller and can pass freely through the majority of masks.

Why are schools taking temperatures? The risk of the SARS CoV2 virus is that its carriers can remain asymptomatic. Surely if a pupil has a temperature they should not be at the school? That is their responsibility to be fit to fly. That is no different if the person has flu or covid19. If the individual cannot be trusted then it follows that the individual temperature should have always been taken, even during flu season. Remember flu is far more harmful to a wider group of people in terms of age than covid 19 appears to be.

Finally, if after all that, you deem it appropriate to mandate this level of ppe, do it properly. In other words all ppe users need to be correctly trained in its use (I was reading some ppe protocol documents today, and they ran to 11 pages). The correct procedure for disposing of clincal waste needs to be implemented. And the correct medically approved ppe should be provide and replaced regularly. If you cross contaminate you will have to replace your ppe.

I spoke to someone wearing a mask today. Over a short conversation he touched his mask 5 times, and yet failed to replace it.

It seems like a lot of people are making stuff up on the spot. Use ppe by all means, but use it safely and correctly or it becomes valueless or more harmful.

If this seems too difficult use common sense. Do not go to the school if you feel unwell. Wash your hands regularly and correctly.
Herschel Krustofski is offline  
Old 9th Jul 2020, 08:06
  #6 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: uk
Posts: 1,038
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
It does in the advice issued that ppe need not be worn by crew if they feel it will interfere with the normal or safe operation of the aircraft. I leave it up to the individual student or instructor. Most folks i talk have already had covid symptoms.
BigEndBob is offline  
Old 9th Jul 2020, 14:22
  #7 (permalink)  
Moderator
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 14,202
Received 46 Likes on 24 Posts
Just think of every industrial health and safety course you've ever been on.

In order of escalation:-

(1) Reduce risk
(2) Remove people from risk
(3) PPE.

PPE is, and should always be, a last resort. However mask wearing is not (3) PPE, it's (2) removing people from risk - it's about containing any possible infections in the person who already has them, and not spreading them. It's not about protection.

(1) in this instance is about questionnaires, not turning up with the faintest sign of illness, having people's temperatures checked... It's the first set of things that should be done.

Worn screens are PPE, so anybody wearing them, should only do so when (1) and (2) have been fully exploited.

And as has already been noted, gloves are not a good idea, not even faintly. Medical practitioners wear them for *some* purposes, potentially changing them many times in a day, within a rigid set of procedures. For the rest of us, constant hand hygiene is a much much better thing to be doing - as it is for most medics most of the time. The only major exceptions are when performing first aid, and when carrying out cleaning tasks.

G
Genghis the Engineer is offline  
Old 9th Jul 2020, 15:28
  #8 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: UK
Posts: 106
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I've just tried on a mask, and my glasses steam up! , so theres a hazard to consider.
My Dentist has sent me a Covid-19 questionnaire to fill in, and then they ask the same questions again when you arrive for the appointment.
shorehamite is offline  
Old 9th Jul 2020, 18:32
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: uk
Posts: 1,038
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by shorehamite
I've just tried on a mask, and my glasses steam up! , so theres a hazard to consider.
My Dentist has sent me a Covid-19 questionnaire to fill in, and then they ask the same questions again when you arrive for the appointment.
What happens if you give the dentist a questionnaire?

I put a sign at our club door. First line..."If you or a relative have been ill with covid, covid symptoms, colds, flu or pneumonia, last 14 days then go home and isolate." Seems simple enough question/command.
I think i will keep a sign there for ever as it would apply for years gone past without covid.
BigEndBob is offline  
Old 10th Jul 2020, 08:46
  #10 (permalink)  
Moderator
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 14,202
Received 46 Likes on 24 Posts
For many years I think Bob, the world at large has been far too relaxed about going out in public, let alone turning up at an airfield or getting into a shared car with infectious diseases. A cold can put a professional pilot off work for several weeks, flu a month. I really hope that one beneficial effect of Covid-19 in our culture is a complete end to that being regarded as acceptable behaviour.

I used to run a large team managing a research aircraft, most of us flying on it regularly. I would send absolutely anybody home who had cold symptoms and wrote into the staff handbook that people were *expected* to work from home if they had any signs of a cold - and yet people used to routinely come in sniffling. If I was still there, by now I think it would have become a disciplinary offence.

G
Genghis the Engineer is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.