E-Exams Roadshow, one day to respond!
This is an extraordinary display of incompetence and chaos by the CAA. With only months to go prior to implementation still no one knows how this is to be carried out: the exam format, what dedicate facilities are to be provided: rooms, equipment and software and how are these facilities to be managed and by whom. What level of invigilation is required and by whom. What are the rules of conduct for a candidate sitting including debriefing. What is the guidance for charging. Nothing comes for free in this world so all costs must be found from somewhere.
What level of communication will be in place for examiners and heads of training? What administration takes place prior to skill test: ie. How will HOTs know that all exams are complete and compliant when signing the course completion certificate. So many questions and so few answers.
Surely this cannot be allowed to go ahead without a published CAP and a standards document. A student applicant should not be exploited as a guinea pig in all this although I understand the pilot sittings will be actual examinations of candidates.
What level of communication will be in place for examiners and heads of training? What administration takes place prior to skill test: ie. How will HOTs know that all exams are complete and compliant when signing the course completion certificate. So many questions and so few answers.
Surely this cannot be allowed to go ahead without a published CAP and a standards document. A student applicant should not be exploited as a guinea pig in all this although I understand the pilot sittings will be actual examinations of candidates.
With the e-exam system, exams may only be booked by the ATO/DTO for a fee of £10 per exam. The current proposal is that the booking will last for 90 days. If the applicant fails to sit the exam in that period, the fee will not be refunded. If the applicant fails the exam, a second booking will also be necessary - plus another £10 fee.
Invigilators will have to be authorised Ground Examiners and will be required to monitor the applicant's activity during the e-exam, so that no cheating / Googling or access to other websites occurs during the exam.
Theoretical Knowledge exams are supposed to be part of LAPL/PPL training, hence an adequate debriefing system is essential if the applicant is to receive any real benefit.
Exam pass records will be stored on the relevant 'portal'.
OK then, someone from the CAA can come into my school and supply a computer, electricity, phone line, supervise the candidate.
Otherwise they, the CAA set up a test centre and i will send the candidate there and cut me out of the equation.
I am not going to do the CAA's job for nothing.
Otherwise they, the CAA set up a test centre and i will send the candidate there and cut me out of the equation.
I am not going to do the CAA's job for nothing.
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£20 goes towards the general costs of providing a building, warmth, electricity, brief debrief time of the examiner that could be flying earning money. And in the future computer and phone internet access.
It also goes towards the cost of re-validating examiner privileges every 3 years as i am about to do. Roughly £725 plus cost of travel, aircraft fuel (aircraft at my cost as i own it) and lost income for day and a half.
I would not be employing a separate GR just to oversee exams, so i have to encourage candidates to sit on rainy days so i can oversee them, as i do now.
Also charging gives the student a sense of loss if they don't pull their finger out. I only charge when they pass, which has been totally wrong on my part. 1st sit i should charge and resit free.
Candidates could go elsewhere to do exam, such as a week course, they will be charged for course time and exam sits.
Flying schools are businesses, not charities.
It also goes towards the cost of re-validating examiner privileges every 3 years as i am about to do. Roughly £725 plus cost of travel, aircraft fuel (aircraft at my cost as i own it) and lost income for day and a half.
I would not be employing a separate GR just to oversee exams, so i have to encourage candidates to sit on rainy days so i can oversee them, as i do now.
Also charging gives the student a sense of loss if they don't pull their finger out. I only charge when they pass, which has been totally wrong on my part. 1st sit i should charge and resit free.
Candidates could go elsewhere to do exam, such as a week course, they will be charged for course time and exam sits.
Flying schools are businesses, not charities.
Undoubtedly the administration costs are going to be substantial for the ATO/DTO in dealing with the CAA registration for each of the 9 exams per student. The follow up monitoring will almost certainly be complicated with each registration and the payment for individual papers running concurrently but not necessarily in sync. Presumably the ATO/DTO will need to pay the CAA and collect the money from the student. This will not always be simple and at times will be subject to much argument at times, so a carefully designed system will be necessary. Both a dedicated exam room and an internet linked computer must be provided. The school will need to add an administration charge for all of this. The CAA are proposing to charge £90 pounds for the 9 exams plus any resits and I would suggest the school will need to charge a similar figure to cover its costs.
What is the "Portal" and how is it to be accessed by HOT and examiners?
The GR examiner will need to continuously audit to ensure the candidate's booking for each exam is correct: ie. first sitting or subsequent resit validity, if maximum sittings exhausted or time expired at 90 days or 18 months. How is this responsibility to be conducted and what time should be set aside for this - who pays? Then there is the pre exam briefing and debrief on top of the invigilation time provided by the GR examiner - who pays?. Therefore the examiner will, of course, need to continue charging as now.
Each exam sitting is likely to double in cost and rise to be in the region of £40-50.
The french have arranged the nine subjects into two groups; 'Common subjects', 48 questions in 1hr 15mins.: Air Law, Human Performance, Meteorology & Communications. 'Class Specific (Aeroplane/Helicopter)', 72 questions, 1hr.55mins; Principles of Flight, Operational Procedures, Performance, Navigation and Aircraft General. 120 questions in total
A one off payment of 60 euros (£50) becomes due to the authority on registration and remains valid for 18 months. This covers all sittings and any resits. There are no additional charges. The drawback is that the exams must be taken at a DGAC centre of which there are number spread across the country. The exams can only be taken on the specific dates and they vary from centre to centre but at some centres only during certain months of the year. From my postcode the nearest centre is 2.5 hours drive away.
The flying school takes no part in any of this other than to sign the students form.
What is the "Portal" and how is it to be accessed by HOT and examiners?
The GR examiner will need to continuously audit to ensure the candidate's booking for each exam is correct: ie. first sitting or subsequent resit validity, if maximum sittings exhausted or time expired at 90 days or 18 months. How is this responsibility to be conducted and what time should be set aside for this - who pays? Then there is the pre exam briefing and debrief on top of the invigilation time provided by the GR examiner - who pays?. Therefore the examiner will, of course, need to continue charging as now.
Each exam sitting is likely to double in cost and rise to be in the region of £40-50.
The french have arranged the nine subjects into two groups; 'Common subjects', 48 questions in 1hr 15mins.: Air Law, Human Performance, Meteorology & Communications. 'Class Specific (Aeroplane/Helicopter)', 72 questions, 1hr.55mins; Principles of Flight, Operational Procedures, Performance, Navigation and Aircraft General. 120 questions in total
A one off payment of 60 euros (£50) becomes due to the authority on registration and remains valid for 18 months. This covers all sittings and any resits. There are no additional charges. The drawback is that the exams must be taken at a DGAC centre of which there are number spread across the country. The exams can only be taken on the specific dates and they vary from centre to centre but at some centres only during certain months of the year. From my postcode the nearest centre is 2.5 hours drive away.
The flying school takes no part in any of this other than to sign the students form.
Last edited by Fl1ingfrog; 27th Jan 2020 at 16:38.
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I suggested exactly the grouping the French have applied to the CAA chap Jim at The Kettering roadshow.
It it would be massively more straightforward to simplify all the online admin if we did 2/9 ths of the effort that is required.
The current uk examiner systems saves people making 2.5 hour journeys also.
There is NO REASON to have 9 exams, other than to keep the historic cock-up made by the CAA in 2013 in the interpretation of EASA regs.
It it would be massively more straightforward to simplify all the online admin if we did 2/9 ths of the effort that is required.
The current uk examiner systems saves people making 2.5 hour journeys also.
There is NO REASON to have 9 exams, other than to keep the historic cock-up made by the CAA in 2013 in the interpretation of EASA regs.
Thread Starter
BEB
For those examiners that (allegedly) abuse the system, there would appear to be no reason to hack the new online system. They can continue to ignore the rules the majority of us follow correctly and just point to the answers on the screen in the same way as they (allegedly) do with the paper versions. Similarly, there would appear to be no reason for the Irish Authority to revise their opinion of our system. I sincerely hope my assessment is incorrect.
I'm now retiring to the nearest nuclear bunker................
For those examiners that (allegedly) abuse the system, there would appear to be no reason to hack the new online system. They can continue to ignore the rules the majority of us follow correctly and just point to the answers on the screen in the same way as they (allegedly) do with the paper versions. Similarly, there would appear to be no reason for the Irish Authority to revise their opinion of our system. I sincerely hope my assessment is incorrect.
I'm now retiring to the nearest nuclear bunker................
The Ground Examiner is an exclusively UK thing and never existed under either JAR or EASA. With the move to centralised exams, the concept of the GR is no longer relevant, as they will no longer hold or administer examinations. The process of conducting CAA exams will now be an administrative process for the ATO/DTO. Any FI could debrief the candidate based upon the exam report and ideally the FI who gave the training or signed off the candidate. With no GRs thats one less fee to pay.
So the GR examiner is to go according to Whopity and I agree the role becomes superfluous, although, from an earlier post, BEagle believes a GR examiner is expected to invigilate. More likely it could be old Tom Cobley or whoever happens to be around and knows where the key is. But, is there anything wrong with that? The candidate takes themselves to the exam room with key, if that is it is kept locked, switches on the computer and associated printer. He/she then follows the online instructions and when ready starts the exam. At the end both the result and debrief is printed out. The candidate leaves the report on the HOT's desk and at some point there may be an instructor debrief or possibly not.
The student guinea pigs will have the most difficult time. For the others it shouldn't be long before the internet is full of feedback questions and answers so any debrief will become of little value towards achieving a pass. Surely the DVLA test centres offer the answer. They are in every region, are secure and equipped and staffed for the purpose. Another good reason to organise the subjects into two relevant exam groups.
The student guinea pigs will have the most difficult time. For the others it shouldn't be long before the internet is full of feedback questions and answers so any debrief will become of little value towards achieving a pass. Surely the DVLA test centres offer the answer. They are in every region, are secure and equipped and staffed for the purpose. Another good reason to organise the subjects into two relevant exam groups.
As we already have GR Examiners they will probably remain, but why would anyone apply to do it in the future especially if you have to pay a fee for the priviledge? I think some form of invigilation will be required but the thought of applying to be a GR just to invigilate is not realistic. It is an admin function which a DTO/ATO will provide to keep its customers in house.
Considering the original exam concept was to have one or two papers the practice of retaining nine seperate exams is simply clinging to the past with no real purpose. Once its all up and running it should prove more satisfactory and will illiminate the open exam papers left laying about and non qualified staff marking papers. One centre per airfield might be a reasonable target.
Considering the original exam concept was to have one or two papers the practice of retaining nine seperate exams is simply clinging to the past with no real purpose. Once its all up and running it should prove more satisfactory and will illiminate the open exam papers left laying about and non qualified staff marking papers. One centre per airfield might be a reasonable target.
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E-Exams
I think Whopity is right, best step forward would be to have a target of at least one test centre for each airfield, similar to FAA system.
Also if the a system could be put in place for one fee for all, like the DGAC it would be far easier to sell to a student.
Also if the a system could be put in place for one fee for all, like the DGAC it would be far easier to sell to a student.
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Under the new system why a debrief, you don't get that at commercial level. You sit an exam, result pass or fail. If fail is there any guidance on where a candidate went wrong.
EASA, the CAA and many other european authorities are ran nowadays by managers and their clerks. Theoretical knowledge and its value to pilot safety is lost on them. They have reduced the examinations from being an assessment of valuable knowledge to being an administration process. This process for them is everything so why would they need the candidate debrief to have value other than to achieve a pass next time. A box can then be ticked. Bring on the feedback question and answer tombs for that is what suits their purpose most.
Australia, Canada, USA and many other non european authorities produce some excellent literature and genuine support of instructors and learning and they shame us.
Australia, Canada, USA and many other non european authorities produce some excellent literature and genuine support of instructors and learning and they shame us.
Last edited by Fl1ingfrog; 30th Jan 2020 at 09:18.
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EASA, the CAA and many other european authorities are ran nowadays by managers and their clerks. Theoretical knowledge and its value to pilot safety is lost on them. They have reduced the examinations from being an assessment of valuable knowledge to being an administration process. This process for them is everything so why would they need the candidate debrief to have value other than to achieve a pass next time. A box can then be ticked. Bring on the feedback question and answer tombs for that is what suits their purpose most.
Australia, Canada, USA and many other non european authorities produce some excellent literature and genuine support of instructors and learning and they shame us.
Australia, Canada, USA and many other non european authorities produce some excellent literature and genuine support of instructors and learning and they shame us.
Under the new system why a debrief, you don't get that at commercial level. You sit an exam, result pass or fail. If fail is there any guidance on where a candidate went wrong.
- Theoretical knowledge actually necessary for every day operations will soon become familiar to the professional pilot through company SOPs and ‘on the job training’ (OJT). However, there is no OJT for private pilots, so they may well continue their flying with blissful ignorance of why they failed a particular question, even though they passed the exam. Which could be fairly critical.
- Private pilot exams are invigilated by an Examiner who is available to debrief the applicant after the exam has been completed. Whereas professional exams are conducted en masse with oversight provided by an invigilator whose primary responsibility is to prevent cheating.
- Unlike an automated system, an Examiner can assess whether a failed question was due to a genuine gap in knowledge, or simply the result of a mistake - e.g. a question concerned fuel loading in US gallons and the applicant used the SG value for Imperial gallons.
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E-exam Road Show
Went to Gatwick this week on Monday 3rd Feb, the exam system actually sounds pretty similar to the US system, except 9 exams as pointed out already.
There will be guidance on the candidates form pass or fail to help the examiner to inform the student of his weak areas, unless he gets less than 50% from memory.
Overall I thought the whole seminar was presented very well by Capt Marren also a chap from Aspect(they wrote the software, plus put the exam data base together with the support of some GA individuals) was on hand to explain the in and outs of the whole online system.
It was a very useful roadshow and personally it was a positive step by the CAA to inform the industry what was going on the PPL exam front.
I just wish the other departments in the CAA would step up to the task in hand too!
One small step forward makes a huge change, well done Capt Marren and his team.
There will be guidance on the candidates form pass or fail to help the examiner to inform the student of his weak areas, unless he gets less than 50% from memory.
Overall I thought the whole seminar was presented very well by Capt Marren also a chap from Aspect(they wrote the software, plus put the exam data base together with the support of some GA individuals) was on hand to explain the in and outs of the whole online system.
It was a very useful roadshow and personally it was a positive step by the CAA to inform the industry what was going on the PPL exam front.
I just wish the other departments in the CAA would step up to the task in hand too!
One small step forward makes a huge change, well done Capt Marren and his team.
