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The process of surrendering a PPL for a LAPL(A)

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The process of surrendering a PPL for a LAPL(A)

Old 24th Jun 2019, 18:37
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Thumbs up The process of surrendering a PPL for a LAPL(A)

Dear all,

I have found a couple of posts talking about the possibility of surrendering a PPL for a LAPL, both providing nice info, but I would like to hear more if there is anyone here who can explain how the process finally went and what else you have to take into account.

I am in charge of organising this as soon as we can for a few colleages who have turned 60 and want to benefit from extended medical or LAPL certification.

My understanding is that as long as you have a valid SEP, medical and ICAO ELP you are good to fill the form, request the licence and you will receive a new one, no need for proficiency checks or any other hassle. Anyway what is the licence "expiry" date you receive, is it the same one as the PPL SEP one?

FCL.135.A LAPL(A) ó Extension of privileges to another class or variant of aeroplane
(a) The privileges of an LAPL(A) shall be limited to the class and variant of aeroplanes or TMG in which the skill test was taken. This limitation may be removed when the pilot has completed in another class the requirements below:
(1) 3 hours of flight instruction, including: (i) 10 dual take-offs and landings; and (ii) 10 supervised solo take-offs and landings.
(2) a skill test to demonstrate an adequate level of practical skill in the new class. During this skill test, the applicant shall also demonstrate to the examiner an adequate level of theoretical knowledge for the other class in the following subjects: (i) Operational procedures; (ii) Flight performance and planning; (iii) Aircraft general knowledge.
(b) Before the holder of an LAPL can exercise the privileges of the licence on another variant of aeroplane than the one used for the skill test, the pilot shall undertake differences or familiarisation training. The differences training shall be entered in the pilotís logbook or equivalent document and signed by the instructor.
I guess this above could have been put in a more clear way... my understanding is that at LAPL(a) level if you want to move from one variant to another (e.g. C172 to PA28) you just have to certify differences training with an instructor (correct me otherwise), just like we do at PPL SEP level and as differences on PPL-SEP they would be valid for life.

If correct, how does this apply to someone experienced converting from PPL to LAPL, do they get credit for all types on which they have past experience? (no need to certify further training).

With regards to the 10 hours before carrying passengers restriction I think it is common sense to say it does not apply.

That's all, I will be looking forward to your input and opinions. They are very appreciated!

Happy landings.

Sam
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Old 24th Jun 2019, 19:01
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The LAPL does not have an expiry date It relies on rolling validity and requires a set amount of experience in the past 12 months on any day that you fly.

Changing from a C172 to a PA28 does not require Differences training, only Familiarisation training that need not involve an instructor. Differences covers VP props, turbochargers, presurisation, Nose/Tail wheel and retractable undercarriage. For SEP and TMG aircraft if you have already flown them it does not need to be repeated.

A LAPL will only cover SEP and TMG class aircraft there are no Types to transfer.

I believe there is an AltMOC that exempts you from the 10 hours which is applicable on initial issue rather than when transfering to a LAPL.

I believe that EASA intend to include LAPL privileges into the PPL so there may not be any need to change licences if you can afford to wait a while. You will just be able to drop to a LAPL medical.
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Old 24th Jun 2019, 20:13
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Thanks Whopity!,

Nice input, looks like I messed it up with differences and familiarisation.

It will be time to call the local CAA to ask about the conversion or whether they have any news on EASA including LAPL privileges on the PPL.

The pilots I want the conversion for are SEP only pilots, so no ratings would be lost (but they are very experienced, current on tailwheel, biplane etc. that's why I was asking about model crediting).

We will have to weigh up pros and cons to see what the best option is.

A LAPL will only cover SEP and TMG class aircraft there are no Types to transfer.
Sorry, I hope there is no shame in saying my instructional experience in LAPL is zero, I still find this confusing to say the least...

https://www.caa.co.uk/General-aviati...-requirements/

Additional ratings

Licence privileges will be restricted to the class or type of aircraft used for the skill test.

However, you can extend your LAPL privileges if you are endorsed to do so by an examiner, similar to applying for ratings on other licence types.


This wording straight out of PART FCL is very poor IMHO!, so are you restricted to a class or a type? It has to be one or the other, and the difference is huge!

Does then a LAPL need any additional training, or even a checkride with an examiner to be legal on a certain type other than the one used for the course? (type refers to a model i.e. PA28, doesn't it?)


Thanks for your help!!!

Last edited by Sam_MHN; 24th Jun 2019 at 20:46. Reason: typo
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Old 25th Jun 2019, 08:52
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In this instance, the word type is only significant if the particular aircraft requires the pilot to hold a Type Rating in order to legally fly it.

And I'm sure there's a better way of wording that!
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Old 25th Jun 2019, 08:55
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..........or at least that's how I've always understood that regulation wording. Someone will be along shortly if I've got it wrong.
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Old 25th Jun 2019, 14:14
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Putting another option in the mix -perhaps you have considered this :

Not sure why you would want to surrender the PPL. I may be wrong but I seem to recall you can operate a PPL on a LAPL medical with the LAPL restrictions and retain the option to jump back to PPL with a class 2 medical.You can also operate non easa aircraft on a PPL with a self declaration

https://www.caa.co.uk/General-Aviati...rivate-pilots/

The other alternative is an NPPL which you can use with a self declaration medical up to 70. You can also hold the NPPL in parallel with the EASA PPL. Though oddly you cannot self declare and hold a class 2 at the same time...
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Old 25th Jun 2019, 16:45
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The CAA reference page is out of date. The use of a Medical Dec on an EASA aircraft has been extended to 7th April 2021.

Licence privileges will be restricted to the class or type of aircraft used for the skill test.
This is for initial issue not conversion, so if you have a SEP rating you will be able to fly aeroplanes but not TMGs, the latter will require a Skill Test so that the privilege can be endorsed on the licence. If you were converting to a LAPL and had both SEP and TMG or SLMG privileges that were current you would get a LAPL with both Aeroplanes and TMGs endorsed upon it.

It will be time to call the local CAA to ask about the conversion or whether they have any news on EASA including LAPL privileges on the PPL.
I wouldn't bother, AOPA might be more up to date.The UK CAA will only read the same answers that you can read on line, they no longer have anyone who knows anything about aeroplanes.

I may be wrong but I seem to recall you can operate a PPL on a LAPL medical with the LAPL restrictions and retain the option to jump back to PPL with a class 2 medical.
That privilege is not included in the Regulation, it is in a CPL but not a PPL and AOPA has been persuing this with EASA. Its probably just another case of badly drafted regulations.
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Old 25th Jun 2019, 19:55
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The relevant amendments to Part-FCL which will resolve the PPPL / LAPL situation will go to the EASA Committee at the EU Commission in Bruxelles on 26/27 Jun - i.e. this week - and a vote is expected!

These include:

The privileges of the holders of a PPL(A) are to act without remuneration as PIC or co-pilots of aeroplanes or TMGs engaged in non-commercial operations and to exercise all privileges of holders of an LAPL(A).”;
(A similar clause will apply to the PPL(H)).

Also:
FCL.040 Exercise of the privileges of licences
The exercise of the privileges granted by a licence shall be dependent upon the validity of the ratings contained therein, if applicable, and of the medical certificate as appropriate to the privileges exercised.
So I suggest that people should wait until after the vote before taking further action.

Some NAAs are very slow / stupid to update themselves about these changes and have to be told several times.... Even then they'll sulk and still try to do their own thing!

Whopity you really shouldn't be so critical of your erstwhile employer! I rang the UK CAA today on a matter connected with the forthcoming Part-FCL vote and they concurred with my point of view, which was the result of abysmal €urobabble in the wording of an amendment proposal, leading to ambiguity. I was advised that other NAAs had also been critical, so with any luck a tweak to the proposal will result.

Last edited by BEagle; 25th Jun 2019 at 20:05.
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Old 27th Jun 2019, 07:36
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Beagle I seem to recall you being somewhat critical of our erstwhile employer a few years ago! Sadly, the CAA has largely shot itself in the foot with the idiot Chief Executive they suffered for a number of years, even current staff will tell you the problems.
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Old 24th Jul 2019, 19:56
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Any Update

[QUOTE=BEagle;10502861]The relevant amendments to Part-FCL which will resolve the PPPL / LAPL situation will go to the EASA Committee at the EU Commission in Bruxelles on 26/27 Jun - i.e. this week - and a vote is expected!

These include:

(A similar clause will apply to the PPL(H)).



Does anyone know if the vote took place and if so what was the outcome. Nothing seems to have been issued about it from the CAA
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Old 24th Jul 2019, 23:35
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It is highly unlikely that the CAA would report the outcome of an EASA committee meeting. Try looking at the EASA web site.
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Old 25th Jul 2019, 13:29
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The dossier relating to the 26/27 June meeting of the EASA Committee, including the summary record, is here
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Old 25th Jul 2019, 16:41
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The important bit:

Annex I to Regulation (EU) No 1178/2011 (Part-FCL) is amended as follows:

(10) In point FCL.205.A, point (a) is replaced by the following:
(a) The privileges of the holders of a PPL(A) are to act without remuneration as PIC or co-pilots of aeroplanes or TMGs engaged in non-commercial operations and to exercise all privileges of holders of an LAPL(A).

In point FCL.205.H, point (a) is replaced by the following:
(a) The privileges of the holder of a PPL(H) are to act without remuneration as PIC or co-pilot of helicopters engaged in non-commercial operations and to exercise all privileges of holders of an LAPL(H).
Of course this still has to filter through the legal process.

Last edited by Whopity; 27th Jul 2019 at 08:34.
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Old 28th Jul 2019, 15:06
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Of course this still has to filter through the legal process.
Does anyone have any idea of the likely timescale?
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Old 12th Aug 2019, 06:56
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6 months is probably a good starting point.
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Old 26th Oct 2019, 20:42
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It was adopted on 15th October
COMMISSION IMPLEMENTING REGULATION (EU) 2019/1747 of 15 October 2019
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