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The FI path --- how?

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Old 10th Oct 2018, 20:58
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The FI path --- how?

I have very little flight experience and just really starting to look into this and the initial plan is to go commercial and fly for airlines but I'm also considering some flight instructing work at some point. How do I go about this? PPL (say 50 hours), hour-build (200 hours?), then CPL, then FI course?

Can this be done on a Class 2 Medical?

Thanks!
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Old 10th Oct 2018, 21:32
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N2P,
before you commit yourself any further it may be prudent to get a class 1 medical first. It would be a shame to do all that hard work and spend lots of money only to find out you have a heart murmur for example. It's happened plenty of times in the past.
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Old 10th Oct 2018, 22:34
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I guess that means this cannot be done on a Class 2?
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Old 11th Oct 2018, 05:01
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PPL & FI can be on a Class 2 but CPL needs a Class 1. The advice to get a Class 1 is so that your dreams don’t get shattered when you’re some way down the line having spent a lot of money only to find out that you have a medical problem that prevents you from getting a CPL. It lets you make an informed choice in that situation.
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Old 11th Oct 2018, 16:23
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Something else you need to be aware of, if you go down the CPL route and take the ATPL exams, then you start a clock whereby having passed all the exams, you only have 3 years to obtain both a CPL and an IR to freeze it all otherwise you would have to resit the theoretical exams.
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Old 11th Oct 2018, 17:22
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... Which is why you should always do the IR before the CPL. An SEIR would freeze the ATPLs and only cost you about £2000. It's a no-brainer.
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Old 11th Oct 2018, 17:33
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So I can flight instruct under FI and a Class 2? I was under the idea that I needed FI and CPL to be able to be paid for FI work, I guess that's wrong?

I do understand the logic behind getting a Class 1 first if the goal is airline pilot.
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Old 11th Oct 2018, 18:22
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I was under the idea that I needed FI and CPL to be able to be paid for FI work, I guess that's wrong?
You can be a FI with a PPL but to teach other than LAPL as a FI you must have passed CPL level theory, for the purpose of instructing there is no expiry date with this. You only need a Class 2 medical if you instruct as a PPL holder however; to undergo the FI course as a PPL holder you need 150 hours PIC compared to 100 hours PIC for a CPL holder. A PPL FI can be remunerated for Instructing and Examining.
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Old 11th Oct 2018, 20:30
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Thanks for the info Whopity! Please let me repeat that to check if I understood you correctly:
> Class 2 - PPL - FI = can only teach LAPL and with a 150hr PIC requirement, can be remunerated
> Class 2 - PPL - FI - CPL theory = can teach PPL and with a 100hr PIC requirement, can be remunerated

As long as I don't take the ATPL exams, I'm not on any timer for anything.
I can take the CPL theory and thus be a CPL holder without having to take ATPL. Can someone confirm what is the requirements to start CPL?

Where is all this info written down so I can take a look for future reference?

Thanks very much for the help!
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Old 11th Oct 2018, 22:14
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There's very little difference between the ATPL and CPL exams. If anything there's more support for the ATPLs so you're better off doing them.

The bottom line is if you want to teach PPL you'll need them. And if you get them, you should just get the CPL and IR anyway, it'll be cheaper.

Cap804 is a good place to start.
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Old 11th Oct 2018, 22:29
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Thanks for pointing me to Cap804 but not sure what you're saying with the rest of your post.

In the long run, I'll be wanting to do both CPL and ATPL anyway but worse-case scenario is that I won't have the funding to go all the way to the end and that's why I'm looking at doing some FI work to keep myself in the scene, earn some extra cash alongside my current job, and continue saving up for the rest of the training (or paying for the loans taken out). I guess the question here is what's the cheapest way to get remuneration for flying, be it flight instructing or banner towing or glider towing or hauling up skydivers?

I'd like to be useful sooner rather than later so IR and night flying would be useful, I think.
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Old 12th Oct 2018, 08:44
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Originally Posted by rudestuff View Post
There's very little difference between the ATPL and CPL exams. If anything there's more support for the ATPLs so you're better off doing them.

The bottom line is if you want to teach PPL you'll need them. And if you get them, you should just get the CPL and IR anyway, it'll be cheaper.

Cap804 is a good place to start.
Cap 804 is info only. https://www.easa.europa.eu/sites/def...20Part-FCL.pdf is where you should look.
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Old 12th Oct 2018, 19:20
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There's very little difference between the ATPL and CPL exams.
CPL Theory Exams = 350 hours; CPL+IR = 500 hours and ATPL =750 hours Instruction required.
The real problem is that ATOs are geared up to teaching ATPL theory and it can be quite difficult to find one offering CPL theory only.

If you take the CPL only and want to move on you will have to resit the exams you have already taken with the associated costs.

The refference above only takes you to the AMC for part FCL. The Consolidated version of the Aircrew Regulation can be found here
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Old 13th Oct 2018, 10:44
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If you want my £0.02...

hour build, IMC and night after/whilst ATPL TK

full CPL course

FIC

work and build experience//funds

MEP. And IR

work and build experience

APS MCC

Why...? Well, the extra 50hrs P1 required for PPL FI will probably cost you more than the 25 CPL course (which you’d need to do anyway so where you pick up the BIFM 10 hours doesn’t really matter.

Do your CPL and FI at the same place (and hopefully that would do the ME and IR as well).
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Old 13th Oct 2018, 14:12
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So many acronyms!!
ATPL TK - what does the TK stand for?
FIC - Flight Instructor Course?
BIFM?

I was hoping to do my study at Bartolini but it seems that I cannot afford to go income-less for the time it takes to do something like PPL. It's three months in Poland with no income and while it's cheaper, the loss of income doesn't seem to make up for it compared to say doing PPL locally over 4-6 months while still working.
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Old 13th Oct 2018, 15:44
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TK= Theoretrical Knowledge.
BIFM= Basic Instrument Flight Module (10hours) common to both CPL and IR Courses.
You should also bear in mind that whilst we have a European Licence the course in different countries can be quite different and if you want to be a FI, you stand a much better chance of getting work if you train in the country where you hope to teach. The ATPL Exams are common through the EU States but the PPL exams are totally different in each State.
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Old 13th Oct 2018, 17:55
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Thanks for clarifying! I do indeed hope to teach in the UK.
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Old 13th Oct 2018, 20:33
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At the moment lots of schools are paying or bonding FICs so before you jump in somewhere and pay look for these sorts of opportunities. One example being FTE Jerez running their Flight Instructor Career Development Programme. 3 year bond no payment from yourself and have the oppurtunity to gain ME IR rating later on whilst teaching PPL level. This sort of thing would allow you to pay for an ME IR whilst working in industry.

Nurse2Pilot if your not already I would head down to Pilot Careers Live in london on 2/3 november, lots of schools and lots of places to get answers.
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Old 13th Oct 2018, 20:54
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Class 1 is required for PPL instruction as it is 'single pilot commercial operations carry passengers' (passenger being someone under training, i.e. no licence)

Happy to be proved wrong!
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Old 13th Oct 2018, 20:56
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I did not know about this, thanks!!

I did know about the career day in London but unfortunately, I'm working that weekend and I'm most probably going to be in charge of the department again so it's hard to weasel out of those shifts.... but I'll do my best!

Truth be told, I'm still unclear/unsure about this path. What does it take to get there course-wise and money-wise? Is it a smart detour vs. going straight for ATPL and putting myself on the airline market as opposed to the flight instructing scene? The pay difference is silly and if the numbers I read on here are correct, I cannot maintain a career as an FI so I'll still be looking at airlines later on, but I would love to flight instruct as I do love teaching. I just cannot sacrifice financial opportunities for it. Will I get clearer answers on the career day? I don't even know what questions to ask!
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