The FI path --- how?
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N2P,
Don't worry, even the professionals get confused. The whole thing is now very regimented in terms of production - just churning out at cheapest price on an integrated course someone to sit up front.
Try and do something different, rather than signing up for an straightforward 100k integrated course, and you discover knowledge on how it is done - under today's rules, which aren't yesterday's and won't be tomorrow's! - was one of the first casualties of standardised production.
Tempted to say: you should be asking all of this to any flying school you are thinking of signing up with. If they can't answer, then don't trust them and go to someone else who can.
But..... does anyone really know their way around this mess?
Don't worry, even the professionals get confused. The whole thing is now very regimented in terms of production - just churning out at cheapest price on an integrated course someone to sit up front.
Try and do something different, rather than signing up for an straightforward 100k integrated course, and you discover knowledge on how it is done - under today's rules, which aren't yesterday's and won't be tomorrow's! - was one of the first casualties of standardised production.
Tempted to say: you should be asking all of this to any flying school you are thinking of signing up with. If they can't answer, then don't trust them and go to someone else who can.
But..... does anyone really know their way around this mess?
Trying to wrap my head around all that info. What is CBIR?
In years gone by we had what was known as the unapproved IR where a pilot with a specific level of experience could do just enough training to pass the IR Skill Test. The JAA did away with that and invented the 55 hour IR Course to replace the 40 hour approved course. Despite the additional 15 hours there were less first time passes than before. This also coincided with the introduction of FNPTs and less training was conducted in aeroplanes.
The CBMIR allows you to obtain an IR with the minim ICAO requirement of 40 hours and may include unapproved training.
Last edited by Whopity; 16th Oct 2018 at 18:35.
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xrayalpha, glad to know I'm not the only one confused! My local flight school is looking for FIs but they don't really teach anything past PPL/N/IR(R); I was told they are sorting things out that they may provide CPL training but that'll be mid- or late-2019, so I don't know if they can answer any of my questions.... although if they are looking for FIs, then maybe the chief instructor may have a better idea?
Whopity, is CBIR different from an actual IR(R) course? Is an IR(R) course different from that taught in CPL/ME/IR? I'm guessing the answer is yes but just need to make sure.... so can I take a IR (not [R]) course while hour-building?
Whopity, is CBIR different from an actual IR(R) course? Is an IR(R) course different from that taught in CPL/ME/IR? I'm guessing the answer is yes but just need to make sure.... so can I take a IR (not [R]) course while hour-building?
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My advice is try moving in close circles, get people to know you and to trust you.
Try to find any window to make it an opportunity to fly, to build hours and more important build your own experience.
Gliding clubs tends to be always in need of Tow-Plane pilots, I built nice amount of hours doing that and what is better, most of the people there are used to work as a team, they will try to give you a hand if you show yourself available. Sometimes they need to ferry the AC to another club or championship and you can be the one doing that.
Sometimes your acquaintances may want to go somewhere and they all chip in to help you minimize the cost. Sometimes they may invite you to pax in the plane and you can be the navigator or radio operator in a long NAV.
Make the most of every flight and read aviation at least once a day (a bit of books, accidents investigations, training videos/material, question banks).
When the moment arrives, it will be your call to say, wow I like this activity so much, I will invest 9k and do FI for some years (2 minimum) or commit to a sponsored FI program for 3; or invest my money in further training towards the goal of becoming an ATPL pilot.
Now your goal is to fly, get the hours, built your own personal experience, mold your airmanship. You are lucky to be in a nice season, don’t worry so much.
Try to find any window to make it an opportunity to fly, to build hours and more important build your own experience.
Gliding clubs tends to be always in need of Tow-Plane pilots, I built nice amount of hours doing that and what is better, most of the people there are used to work as a team, they will try to give you a hand if you show yourself available. Sometimes they need to ferry the AC to another club or championship and you can be the one doing that.
Sometimes your acquaintances may want to go somewhere and they all chip in to help you minimize the cost. Sometimes they may invite you to pax in the plane and you can be the navigator or radio operator in a long NAV.
Make the most of every flight and read aviation at least once a day (a bit of books, accidents investigations, training videos/material, question banks).
When the moment arrives, it will be your call to say, wow I like this activity so much, I will invest 9k and do FI for some years (2 minimum) or commit to a sponsored FI program for 3; or invest my money in further training towards the goal of becoming an ATPL pilot.
Now your goal is to fly, get the hours, built your own personal experience, mold your airmanship. You are lucky to be in a nice season, don’t worry so much.
A CBIR is an ICAO IR wheras the IR(R) is a new name for the UK IMC rating, which was originally designed to let PPL holders exercise instrument privileges using whatever equipment their aircraft was equipped with under specified conditions. At the moment IMC training can continue with a last issue date of 7th April 2019. Its future beyond that is subject to further negotiation.
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I take it the IR(R) is a pared down version of ICAO IR? And if I do the IR(R), I'll still need to do the other one?
Airgus, my plan is to get my PPL. I know I want to fly one way or another. Just using this thread to explore options and find out "how-to" after I've done my PPL. There is a gliding club and at least two skydiving outfits nearby that I know of so I'll be knocking on doors later on. However, it is my understanding that I can do these types of flying for free under PPL or get a CPL and get remuneration, correct? Or are they considered "commercial" activities whether I get paid or not?
Airgus, my plan is to get my PPL. I know I want to fly one way or another. Just using this thread to explore options and find out "how-to" after I've done my PPL. There is a gliding club and at least two skydiving outfits nearby that I know of so I'll be knocking on doors later on. However, it is my understanding that I can do these types of flying for free under PPL or get a CPL and get remuneration, correct? Or are they considered "commercial" activities whether I get paid or not?
I take it the IR(R) is a pared down version of ICAO IR?
You should be aware that Skydiving clubs like to use skydivers as their pilots and Gliding clubs will only want to use pilots with gliding experience so if you have neither of these you are not likely to get a look in. To be reminerated as a pilot, with the exception of flight instruction you will need a CPL.
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Sorry to be a bit thick here, but I want to be sure I get this straight --- I can fly for banner towing or skydiving or gliding with a PPL, I just won't get paid for it, correct?
Any reason for club preference of pilots that have done skydiving/gliding as opposed to someone who hasn't? The gliding club I've been in had older members who are ex-military or ex-airline fly their tow planes, but are you saying they'd say no to someone else taking on this role just because they don't have gliding experience?
Any reason for club preference of pilots that have done skydiving/gliding as opposed to someone who hasn't? The gliding club I've been in had older members who are ex-military or ex-airline fly their tow planes, but are you saying they'd say no to someone else taking on this role just because they don't have gliding experience?
From the regulation:
So if its remunerated or deemed a commercial operation you cannot do it on a PPL.
There are numerous hazards associated with parachute dropping, and glider towing, therefore to ensure that the pilots involved have a good knowledge and experience of the activity, then it is in their best interest to only use pilots who already have the requisite knowledge and experience. Jo Bloggs who just fancies some some flying with them without the experience is a potential liability and best avoided.
(a) The privileges of the holder of a PPL(A) are to act without remuneration as PIC or co-pilot on
aeroplanes or TMGs engaged in non-commercial operations.
aeroplanes or TMGs engaged in non-commercial operations.
There are numerous hazards associated with parachute dropping, and glider towing, therefore to ensure that the pilots involved have a good knowledge and experience of the activity, then it is in their best interest to only use pilots who already have the requisite knowledge and experience. Jo Bloggs who just fancies some some flying with them without the experience is a potential liability and best avoided.
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N2P, get your PPL first, build your experience second.
Then decide.
No one will give you an AC with Zero Hours, unless you are a renter and you did a check up flight and you pay for that.
No gliding club will let you fly their aircraft unless you get yourself there, invest time with them, get some gliding hours (my advise is always if you can, gliding is a great way of learning how to fly) and after insisting they will open up in few months. Tow Banner is a paid activity, so forget about it.
Your first 100 hours are on your own, the second 100 hours can be done with some networking help (gliding towing as an example) if you want to call it like that, but you still need to pump some cash to build those hours.
Flight Instructing to jump to the airlines is like those who can not afford flying will join the air-force to be deserters after few years to become civilian pilots. The core of AF is to serve your nation, not to use them as a bridge.
The core of instructing is to share experience (that you do not have) and you are expecting to build under the cost of the student.
The student is supposed to be learning from you, not the other way around.
Instructing for you will come when you feel like doing it. Not now, not next year .
Follow my previous advice, build yourself up correctly thinking in your future, you have nothing to lose in grabbing a book, reading magazines, flying every week or weekend, until you find yourself in the moment, that you ask yourself whatever you are asking now.
After you get 100 hours as PPL pilot, ask yourself:
Then decide.
No one will give you an AC with Zero Hours, unless you are a renter and you did a check up flight and you pay for that.
No gliding club will let you fly their aircraft unless you get yourself there, invest time with them, get some gliding hours (my advise is always if you can, gliding is a great way of learning how to fly) and after insisting they will open up in few months. Tow Banner is a paid activity, so forget about it.
Your first 100 hours are on your own, the second 100 hours can be done with some networking help (gliding towing as an example) if you want to call it like that, but you still need to pump some cash to build those hours.
Flight Instructing to jump to the airlines is like those who can not afford flying will join the air-force to be deserters after few years to become civilian pilots. The core of AF is to serve your nation, not to use them as a bridge.
The core of instructing is to share experience (that you do not have) and you are expecting to build under the cost of the student.
The student is supposed to be learning from you, not the other way around.
Instructing for you will come when you feel like doing it. Not now, not next year .
Follow my previous advice, build yourself up correctly thinking in your future, you have nothing to lose in grabbing a book, reading magazines, flying every week or weekend, until you find yourself in the moment, that you ask yourself whatever you are asking now.
After you get 100 hours as PPL pilot, ask yourself:
- Shall I continue the reading and turn it into study to get the CPL/ATPL TK?, yes, then get yourself in that path. Become a professional pilot.
- Shall I continue flying weekends as a hobby and remain PPL? yes, then continue with your money making job, safe heaven and nice hobby.
- Shall I continue in this club that they know me and become a *CRI to get them a hand flying while I am available?, yes, invest 15k in CPL then start building your CRI experience by doing check rides, safety pilot flights, endorsement for different type of aircraft that club owns, etc. *You need 300 PIC
- Shall I continue as FI after that experience?, yes then invest 8k to do the course and start teaching PPL student considering you already are known to that school or club, otherwise, the first year as FI with no experience is a hunting game with a low reward.
- Can I grow as FI? well get yourself a MEP, move into a skydiving club that fly twins, get your MEP experience above 100s hrs MEP, get back to the FI as MEP.
- Can I keep growing as IRI? by the time you reach it, TESLA would have created a plane that is flown by dogs and no human will be needed anymore.
Last edited by Airgus; 17th Oct 2018 at 12:03.
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Thanks for the explanation Whopity! I think the question here is whether skydiving ops or glider towing for a club is considered a commercial operation? I also fully understand your point re: knowledge and experience however someone must start somewhere, correct? Can I not turn up for a few or several sessions to know how things work and then go on from there?
Airgus, like I said, getting the PPL is a given, and thank you for your advice! I may have already stepped off the cliff today as I've signed up with the local school for some flight hours, and as you've said, we shall see. I have had several flights in a glider a few years ago but a few bad experiences with the club meant I stopped going. I wonder if they'll remember me but I have my logbook for proof!
Airgus, like I said, getting the PPL is a given, and thank you for your advice! I may have already stepped off the cliff today as I've signed up with the local school for some flight hours, and as you've said, we shall see. I have had several flights in a glider a few years ago but a few bad experiences with the club meant I stopped going. I wonder if they'll remember me but I have my logbook for proof!
The skydiving question is answered on the EASA Website.
A useful link to towing gliders here: https://tugpilots.co.uk/pilots/requirements/
Banner towing requires a banner towing rating in accordance with FCL.805, but not a CPL.
Can I fly an aeroplane for commercial parachute dropping operation with my PPL (A)?
Answer
Parachute dropping - Reference: Reg. (EU) No 965/2012 on air operations: Art. 6(4a); Regulation (EU) No 1178/2011 on Aircrew: Art. 3(2) The holder of an LAPL or a PPL may conduct parachute-dropping flights, only if the conditions stipulated in Art 6 (4a) of Reg. (EU) No 965/2012 are met. In all other cases, only pilots who hold at least a CPL can conduct SPO flights in accordance with Part-SPO.
Banner towing requires a banner towing rating in accordance with FCL.805, but not a CPL.
