The FI path --- how?

[Drussjnr]

Originally Posted by kick the tires

Class 1 is required for PPL instruction as it is 'single pilot commercial operations carry passengers' (passenger being someone under training, i.e. no licence)

Happy to be proved wrong!

The medical if for the flying licence... in this instance the PPL, The FI rating is a rating to be added to the PPL licence making the holder PPL FI(R). I dont see how having the FI rating all of a sudden increases the class 2 for a ppl to class 1?

Happy to be proved wrong!

[kick the tires]

Originally Posted by Drussjnr

The medical if for the flying licence... in this instance the PPL, The FI rating is a rating to be added to the PPL licence making the holder PPL FI(R). I dont see how having the FI rating all of a sudden increases the class 2 for a ppl to class 1?

Happy to be proved wrong!

As a PPL(FI) you are operating in a commercial role and taking a student (passenger) flying for reward, whereas as a PPL holder you are operating solely as a private pilot.

You can still fly on a Class 2 as a PPL(FI) but not when exercising the privileges of your FI rating.

[Nurse2Pilot]

Source for this, kick?

Looked at the FTE opportunity, they want PPL+CPL, Class1, ICAO 5 applicants. Anyone got any idea what a competitive salary on the same benefits as a standard FTEJerez employee comes down to in actual numbers? If this is any good, I'll be going for my Class 1 ASAP!!

[Whopity]

Class 1 is required for PPL instruction as it is 'single pilot commercial operations carry passengers' (passenger being someone under training, i.e. no licence)

Happy to be proved wrong!

WRONG! A PPL requires a Class 2 Medical Certificate and the privileges of the licence include remunerated Flight Instruction where the holder has a valid Flight Instructor Certificate

FCL.205.A PPL(A) — Privileges
(a) The privileges of the holder of a PPL(A) are to act without remuneration as PIC or co-pilot on
aeroplanes or TMGs engaged in non-commercial operations.
(b) Notwithstanding the paragraph above, the holder of a PPL(A) with instructor or examiner
privileges may receive remuneration for:
(1) the provision of flight instruction for the LAPL(A) or PPL(A);
(2) the conduct of skill tests and proficiency checks for these licences;
(3) the training, testing and checking for the ratings or certificates attached to this licence.

A student pilot is a crew member under training, not a passenger.

[Drussjnr]

Originally Posted by kick the tires

As a PPL(FI) you are operating in a commercial role and taking a student (passenger) flying for reward, whereas as a PPL holder you are operating solely as a private pilot.

You can still fly on a Class 2 as a PPL(FI) but not when exercising the privileges of your FI rating.

the air navigation order states that the holder of a PPL is entitled to fly as pilot in command of any of the types or classes the occupant has on his licence. However, the holder may not receive any remuneration for services as a pilot, accept for towing a glider, dropping parachutists or has a flight instructors rating. A PPL holder with instructor or examiner privileges may receive remuneration for: Provision of flight instruction for the LAPL or PPL, Conduct of skill tests and proficiency checks for these licences; or for the ratings and certificates attached to these licences.

Looking in CAP 804 I cannot see anywhere it states for issue of PPL FI(R) they need a Class 1 nor to exercise privileges.

[kick the tires]

FCL.205.A PPL(A) — Privileges

This lists the privileges of a PPL, which is not the point in question; but it makes no mention of Class of medical.

On the back of my medical certificate it breaks it down into commercial and non-commercial i.e. Class One = single pilot commercial operations with a non-licensed person, be it passenger or training crew member, is flying for reward as a single pilot.

[Drussjnr]

Originally Posted by Nurse2Pilot

Source for this, kick?

Looked at the FTE opportunity, they want PPL+CPL, Class1, ICAO 5 applicants. Anyone got any idea what a competitive salary on the same benefits as a standard FTEJerez employee comes down to in actual numbers? If this is any good, I'll be going for my Class 1 ASAP!!

One of my ex instructors moved out to FTE back in 2016, He started on roughly €24k and said it would rise to roughly €29k, that as a basic PPL instructor not a MEIR instructor... Things may have changed but thats the most recent figure i know. They keep their pay figures quite guarded!

[Nurse2Pilot]

Originally Posted by kick the tires

FCL.205.A PPL(A) — Privileges

This lists the privileges of a PPL, which is not the point in question; but it makes no mention of Class of medical.

On the back of my medical certificate it breaks it down into commercial and non-commercial i.e. Class One = single pilot commercial operations with a non-licensed person, be it passenger or training crew member, is flying for reward as a single pilot.

Well, we know PPL only requires a Class 2, and FCL.205.A says, remuneration is possible when providing FI to LAPL or PPL but does not specify that this remuneration now needs a Class 1, so I guess we're reading something that's not there?

Drussjnr, 24K EUR or around £21K is.... something that even brand-new nurses don't start on. Even 29K EUR or £25K is.... low. Is living in Spain that much cheaper? The rent for a 3-bed apartment listed on the FTEJerez HR guide is the same cost as my 3-bed terraced, so don't see much difference there! I've sent them an email anyway so let's see if they respond with solid figures. Don't get me wrong, I'm not all in for the money but I expect to have loans to pay especially if I'm going to fast-track my training so a good salary would be ideal and a bad salary may turn this into a non-starter.

[Whopity]

The Air Navigation Order is a National document that is superceed by the EC Regulation. CAP 804 is defunct as far as EU regulation goes
Article 7 of the Basic Regulation:

2. Except when under training, a person may only act as a pilot
if he or she holds a licence and a medical certificate appropriate
to the operation to be performed.

A student is acting as a pilot and does therefore meet the definition of a passenger.
Annex IV to the Aircrew Regulation

Requirements for medical certificates
MED.A.030 Medical certificates
(a) A student pilot shall not fly solo unless that student pilot holds a medical certificate, as required for the relevant licence.
(b) Applicants for and holders of a light aircraft pilot licence (LAPL) shall hold at least an LAPL medical certificate.
(c) Applicants for and holders of a private pilot licence (PPL), a sailplane pilot licence (SPL), or a balloon pilot licence (BPL) shall hold at least a Class 2 medical certificate.
(f) Applicants for and holders of a commercial pilot licence (CPL), a multi-crew pilot licence (MPL), or an airline transport pilot licence (ATPL) shall hold a Class 1 medical certificate.

The holder of a PPL may exercise the privileges of the licence given in FCL.205.A (above)

[xrayalpha]

N2P,

This advert from ACS in Scotland might help you decide to go straight for airlines!

They estimate around £16k a year for an FI. You would be better off working in McDonalds or stacking shelves in Aldi.

https://afors.com/aircraftView/44191

My tuppence worth. Do your three 12 hour shifts a week as a nurse (in Scotland, anyway) and work as a part time FI (maybe microlights? You could be microlight FI(R) for about £6k) and enjoy flying and teaching. Maybe even just do two shifts a week as a nurse on the bank, and you have a good basic regular income to sort out the bills and then do some flying.

Or go straight to the airlines.

[selfin]

Originally Posted by kick the tires

As a PPL(FI) you are operating in a commercial role ...

Flight instructing under UK and EU law is a non-commercial operation.

Originally Posted by Drussjnr

the air navigation order states that the holder of a PPL is ...

The Order refers to UK national licences and ratings as defined in Schedule 8.

[Nurse2Pilot]

Originally Posted by xrayalpha

They estimate around £16k a year for an FI. You would be better off working in McDonalds or stacking shelves in Aldi.

They're having a laugh, right? I hope that's a typo or maybe a 10+ year old advert? Full-time instructing at £16K per annum is just a non-starter. Brand new nurses start at £22K basic with take-home pay at a much higher level once lates, nights, weekends, and overtime comes in.

[Whopity]

Full-time instructing at £16K per annum is just a non-starter.

Very few FIs are salaried, most are paid by the hour, flight hours only. You can earn more money teaching people to ride horses than to fly aeroplanes.

[dook]

Or drive a car...………...

[Nurse2Pilot]

Yeah but I have no desire to ride horses.... so like I said, full-time instructing at £16K is a non-starter. Part-time instructing, however, where the bill payment is not dependent on flight hours, I can very well see myself doing, but provided the pay is reasonable. Basically, the idea is to do FI on the side with my main job so as to be able to save up more for the other courses needed for the airline role.... if a nursing agency shift pays significantly more than a day spent in the flight school, then again, it'll be a no-brainer. I'll probably be okay with a slight dip in income for the day, but that'll only be up to a point after which it would be silly to choose one over the other.

[Duchess_Driver]

You'll find 16K is possibly a little on the light side now for full time, professional instruction but geographics have a lot to do with it. PPL Instruction has always been a 'passion' career or for time builders - it's only when you get to the big stuff (ME, IRI) that the money becomes 'survivable' but being able to reach the entry requirements for those are a long way off for you. As has been stated, day job and instruct part time where/when you can to build hours and experience then airlines or buy a caravan!

[Nurse2Pilot]

Well, if part of the requirement for an FI course is CPL, then that's really most if not all of the time building complete, is it not? It's only really a 'career for time builders' in the other side of the pond with a 1500hr requirement, right?

[Duchess_Driver]

Time building to get to the airlines rather than hour building to get the licence...

[rudestuff]

Originally Posted by Nurse2Pilot

Thanks for pointing me to Cap804 but not sure what you're saying with the rest of your post.

In the long run, I'll be wanting to do both CPL and ATPL anyway but worse-case scenario is that I won't have the funding to go all the way to the end and that's why I'm looking at doing some FI work to keep myself in the scene, earn some extra cash alongside my current job, and continue saving up for the rest of the training (or paying for the loans taken out). I guess the question here is what's the cheapest way to get remuneration for flying, be it flight instructing or banner towing or glider towing or hauling up skydivers?

I'd like to be useful sooner rather than later so IR and night flying would be useful, I think.

Sure, the point I and a few others was making is that to instruct PPL you need the CPL or ATPL exams. I've done both, and the question standard is near identical, so the only difference is in the number of hours required (not that relevant because you want to save money - so will presumably be distance learning). So the ATPL exams are the obvious choice.

Now the important bit: You can get an airline job with 200 hours/100 PIC but to become an FI holding only a PPL you'll require a MINIMUM of 230 hours/150 PIC, and probably more like 250 hours.
Given that the CBIR route allows you to get an IR while hour building and a CPL course costs less than an FI course, in a nutshell: Becoming a PPL/FI as a stepping-stone to CPL/IR makes no sense because it will cost you more than a CPL/IR!

[Nurse2Pilot]

Originally Posted by Duchess_Driver

Time building to get to the airlines rather than hour building to get the licence...

What's the difference? 250hrs or whatever the requirement is to get CPL or FI is still 250hrs and would still be recognised by the airlines, correct?

Originally Posted by rudestuff

Given that the CBIR route allows you to get an IR while hour building and a CPL course costs less than an FI course, in a nutshell: Becoming a PPL/FI as a stepping-stone to CPL/IR makes no sense because it will cost you more than a CPL/IR!

Trying to wrap my head around all that info. What is CBIR?

From what I understand so far:
* I can do PPL/FI under Class 2 Medical but can only teach LAPL (source?)
* Doing CPL by itself is redundant because I'll want to do ATPL later anyway so it's better to just study for and take the ATPL exams but this then sets an 18-month timer to freeze it --- what do I need to do to freeze the ATPL? CPL/IR?
* After doing my ATPL exams and taking CPL/IR (are there exams for CPL and IR or is it just a skills test +/- an oral exam??), and assuming I took a FI course under PPL, I can now instruct PPL


Looking at all this and comparing to the FTE Jerez FI offer, they want CPL with IR, FI, and a Class 1 Medical with 500hrs PIC and 200hrs being flight instructing..... at this point I'm thinking why would someone with those ratings and hours still be looking at FI and not airline applications? Or whoever is in that situation either 1) has no interest in airline and really wants to flight instruct or 2) is just in a holding pool for airline pilot applicants and won't be flight instructing for very long.

Looking at their FI Career Development offer, they want CPL and a Class 1 Medical, but I can't find a minimum number of hours needed before taking CLP or ATPL exams? So can I do PPL, then study for ATPL, take the exams, do CPL, and then apply?

Getting more and more confused now!!