Survey: 2018, Instructor's terms and conditions on a changing market?
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Although I take the point that airlines are currently 'vacuuming' up Instructors, I'm very curious to know why the regionals etc would be interested in PPL Instructors teaching straight & level. From the Airlines perspective, Is it a case of just being in the industry coupled with a serious need for pilots ?
I dont yet meet the hours to qualify as an IRI so love to hear peoples opinion on this.
I dont yet meet the hours to qualify as an IRI so love to hear peoples opinion on this.
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HW
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'Straight & level was simply used colloquially to describe the kind of flying one does as a PPL instructor. So basically 'I do mind you saying..' if your going to judge other members.
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Try asking most integrated ATO graduates how to select and maintain S&L for a given speed/config and you might see why some operators like former instructors. The other advantage is experience - with hours in the logbook you are closer to meeting minimums for command, which is where there is currently some demand. There are other qualities that FI's bring such as an ability to convey information, greater exposure to the flying environment, and importantly a proven interest in teaching which is a desirable quality for potential TRI/TRE's. I know a number of former PPL flying instructors who are senior trainers/examiners on types as varied as the ATR and 747/A380. I also get Happy Wanderer's comment regarding teaching basic flying skills; by the time a student reaches the MEIR phase, they can already fly (apparently) - the real instructional work is done in the first 20 or so hours.
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Try asking most integrated ATO graduates how to select and maintain S&L for a given speed/config and you might see why some operators like former instructors. The other advantage is experience - with hours in the logbook you are closer to meeting minimums for command, which is where there is currently some demand. There are other qualities that FI's bring such as an ability to convey information, greater exposure to the flying environment, and importantly a proven interest in teaching which is a desirable quality for potential TRI/TRE's. I know a number of former PPL flying instructors who are senior trainers/examiners on types as varied as the ATR and 747/A380. I also get Happy Wanderer's comment regarding teaching basic flying skills; by the time a student reaches the MEIR phase, they can already fly (apparently) - the real instructional work is done in the first 20 or so hours.
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I think the thread has started to go off in the wrong direction. Hugofly makes some good observations and its nice to see someone say out loud they love teaching and wouldn't want to do anything else. I believe the industry needs more people like this to survive and keep the standards where they need to be. I know there are schools that would pay more for dedicated instructors who are not racing off to the airlines as soon as they get the hours needed. I guess the real question is, what are these type of instructors worth, and perhaps, as already commented on this thread, what is a good school, looking for these type of instructors, willing to or can afford to pay? I do feel the 'hours building' instructors, which are still needed to meet training demand, have managed to drive the wages down. Its not their fault, its just old fashioned capitalism at work.
Whatever the answer might be, I think the industry has to wake up to the idea that good dedicated instructors are worth a lot more than 25K a year! - I hope everyone agrees with that, after all, this is the 'flying instructors and examiners' forum!!
Whatever the answer might be, I think the industry has to wake up to the idea that good dedicated instructors are worth a lot more than 25K a year! - I hope everyone agrees with that, after all, this is the 'flying instructors and examiners' forum!!
What a great shame some of the retirees from airlines corporate etc., have to part out 8 grand plus to, pass on knowledge gained over long careers. Surely these are some of the people a flying school would benifit from having.
After instructing for many years then running off to the airlines to earn some pennies I am in a position to return and would love too but the hoops that need jumping plus the cost make it a difficult decision.
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USA
Guys,
I contacted 4 ATO in the USA, if they were interested in my services.
3 replied, one so far not.
The 3 that replied all said the same thing, we would love to take you in, but can not sponsor you !!
Have a nice day,
Gerrit
FAA ATP CFII MEI
EASA CPL FI IRI CRI
I contacted 4 ATO in the USA, if they were interested in my services.
3 replied, one so far not.
The 3 that replied all said the same thing, we would love to take you in, but can not sponsor you !!
Have a nice day,
Gerrit
FAA ATP CFII MEI
EASA CPL FI IRI CRI
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Yes I am in a similar predicament and also at 67 would I get my investment back I wonder? It would also involve living away from home as there is nothing local.
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At the risk of thread creep further...EASA needs to seriously look at the requirements for some of the advanced teaching courses, specifically the MEIR. I love teaching, and do it on the side from my 737 job, but I cannot teach ME unless I have 30hrs p1, which will cost about 10k! I cannot afford that (as a 737 captain!!) so how can any freshly minted FI get that unless sponsored by a school, and not too many schools can afford that. There is a tiny market for piston twin work in europe now, so you cant get the hours that way, even if you had thousands of hours on a dash 8 I do not believe there is any dispensation!
It is fast approaching the point where all MEIR will only be taught at the 2-3 big schools. It is just not financially viable for the average flight school to teach this. Such a massive shame, as it will ultimately lead to a big closure in schools...
It is fast approaching the point where all MEIR will only be taught at the 2-3 big schools. It is just not financially viable for the average flight school to teach this. Such a massive shame, as it will ultimately lead to a big closure in schools...
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so would I, but my FI expired in 2002, so it’d cost thousands to get it back and take years to recoup that
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I do believe the Industry would benefit greatly from having experienced pilots (instructors) going back to ab-initio instructing. Consider writing to the CAA to obtain details of exactly what is required to renew your FI with SEP. I believe each person would be reviewed based on their experience, so training required could be a lot less than you might think!
An ex-colleague of mine did this about a year ago and was quoted 'training as required' to meet proficiency plus an AoC with an FIE, which resulted in less than 10 hours total training. The FIE, I believe, did the test for a minimal charge as a courtesy, and the school which was interested in his services paid for 50% of the costs for a commitment to work as an instructor for 12 months...sounds like a common sense approach to me!
As I have mentioned in a previous post, flight pay rates (and even basic salaries) have definitely improved in the last year, so I don't think it would take years to recoup the outlay. I do know a couple of schools that are eagerly looking for mature pilots to fill a current void if anyone would like to PM me for details (I think I am allowed to receive these now?).
An ex-colleague of mine did this about a year ago and was quoted 'training as required' to meet proficiency plus an AoC with an FIE, which resulted in less than 10 hours total training. The FIE, I believe, did the test for a minimal charge as a courtesy, and the school which was interested in his services paid for 50% of the costs for a commitment to work as an instructor for 12 months...sounds like a common sense approach to me!
As I have mentioned in a previous post, flight pay rates (and even basic salaries) have definitely improved in the last year, so I don't think it would take years to recoup the outlay. I do know a couple of schools that are eagerly looking for mature pilots to fill a current void if anyone would like to PM me for details (I think I am allowed to receive these now?).
Thread Starter
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From Private message
"FI(R) 420 hours total, not a sniff from any airline, qualified 5-6yrs ago now. Instruct part time in the north of England for £18/flight hour, have a full time job in a different industry that earns me a living. Instructor rating paid itself off now and got me 150 hours. In my opinion no schools are recruiting locally or they are being picky as usual, I’m willing to relocate for a good paying full time flying job.
Feel free to reword appropriately. (did not)
Regards"
Thank you for participating
"FI(R) 420 hours total, not a sniff from any airline, qualified 5-6yrs ago now. Instruct part time in the north of England for £18/flight hour, have a full time job in a different industry that earns me a living. Instructor rating paid itself off now and got me 150 hours. In my opinion no schools are recruiting locally or they are being picky as usual, I’m willing to relocate for a good paying full time flying job.
Feel free to reword appropriately. (did not)
Regards"
Thank you for participating
Read an article recently, think it was in The Times, re part time jobs that students were doing to pay their way, ie;
Language tutoring £25-30/hr
Videogame tutoring (eg Fortnite) £30/hr (you're joking, yeah?)
Piano/guitar teaching £18-39/hr
IKEA flatpack furniture assembly £20-25/hr (oh for goodness sake...)
Dog walking £15/hr
Cleaning £12/hr (£20/hr London)
Pet sitting £12/hr
Personal training £45/hr
Teaching yoga £30-50/hr
Kinda puts PPL instructor rates in perspective. Just saying.
Language tutoring £25-30/hr
Videogame tutoring (eg Fortnite) £30/hr (you're joking, yeah?)
Piano/guitar teaching £18-39/hr
IKEA flatpack furniture assembly £20-25/hr (oh for goodness sake...)
Dog walking £15/hr
Cleaning £12/hr (£20/hr London)
Pet sitting £12/hr
Personal training £45/hr
Teaching yoga £30-50/hr
Kinda puts PPL instructor rates in perspective. Just saying.
Instructing has always been poorly paid and probably will always be. After you take into account crap weather days and brief/debrief time you will earn a decent amount more working in Lidl.
Instructing has always been about building hours to get the big break. If you are older in years you have to seriously take this into account as the odds are stacked against you.
Did I regret doing it 18 years ago - definitely no.
Would I go through it at my age now (almost mid 40) - definitely no.
Instructing has always been about building hours to get the big break. If you are older in years you have to seriously take this into account as the odds are stacked against you.
Did I regret doing it 18 years ago - definitely no.
Would I go through it at my age now (almost mid 40) - definitely no.
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The only one on that list that comes remotely needing any formal qualification would be music teaching, typically grade 8, but I guess there's no regulatory body stating that. So really, no comparison to a requirement for
a) a formal qualification
b) recurrent testing
c) a strict regulatory environment.
TOO
a) a formal qualification
b) recurrent testing
c) a strict regulatory environment.
TOO
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Let's say you get paid 30 per "flying hour" GROSS, you need to consider almost half of this per hour.
30 minutes goes in briefing and AC preparation.
20 minutes goes on debriefing and deplaning (I mean securing AC, techlogs and walk to school).
Therefore your working hour is rewarded with less than 17 gross.
Out of the 17 you need to pay taxes, revalidation cost, medical, commuting to outisde of the city where most airfields are located, to name few of the costs.
A Yoga teacher, dog walker, guitar or language teacher will have other costs to pay and taxes but their working hour is based on the real hour. They arrived at 1300 hrs, they leave at 1400hrs and they get paid for one hour.
A FI will arrive in at 1200 leaves at 1400 and get paid for 1 flying hour.
If the industry is in need of experienced and motivated FI, the key here in my opinion, is not to hunt and form new FI but to retain the experienced ones.
The industry must pay FI according to their long term commitment.
As an example, Pay them 30 during the first year, but as a school calculate a 45 as a cost per hour to cover the rate of the experienced ones. With that cost pre-planned you can increment 5 per hour per year for at least 5 years without having a need to revise your operating costs.
30 minutes goes in briefing and AC preparation.
20 minutes goes on debriefing and deplaning (I mean securing AC, techlogs and walk to school).
Therefore your working hour is rewarded with less than 17 gross.
Out of the 17 you need to pay taxes, revalidation cost, medical, commuting to outisde of the city where most airfields are located, to name few of the costs.
A Yoga teacher, dog walker, guitar or language teacher will have other costs to pay and taxes but their working hour is based on the real hour. They arrived at 1300 hrs, they leave at 1400hrs and they get paid for one hour.
A FI will arrive in at 1200 leaves at 1400 and get paid for 1 flying hour.
If the industry is in need of experienced and motivated FI, the key here in my opinion, is not to hunt and form new FI but to retain the experienced ones.
The industry must pay FI according to their long term commitment.
As an example, Pay them 30 during the first year, but as a school calculate a 45 as a cost per hour to cover the rate of the experienced ones. With that cost pre-planned you can increment 5 per hour per year for at least 5 years without having a need to revise your operating costs.