Lapsed UK ATPL and UK PPL

[anchorhold]

I wondered to these question while regulation are in flux.


(a) If someone was issued with a UK PPL in the 1980's do they have to pay to 'upgrade to a EASA PPL, as the PPL was issued for life. I ask this as to change from a old style driving (non photo) there is no charge.

(b) On the basis that someone holds an EASA PPL or UK PPL they can not fly aerobatics without a rating, unless having attended a AOPA aerobatics, why can someone not provide evidence of credible aerobatics training.

(c) Someone has a UKATPL valid to 2009, so it has expired, how does this person renew aUK ATPL, can they do this with a LPC, do they need a valid IR and class one medical.


(d) Under a UK or EASA PPL, CPL or ATPL does the licence holder have rights to IR(R) rights in the UK.

(e) Can someone with a UK PPL or EASA obtain a clearance at the discretion of ATC.

Thank you in advance

[RTN11]

I wondered to these question while regulation are in flux.

How are they in flux? They changed years ago, it's now quite stable.

(a) If someone was issued with a UK PPL in the 1980's do they have to pay to 'upgrade to a EASA PPL, as the PPL was issued for life. I ask this as to change from a old style driving (non photo) there is no charge.

The old UK licence is still valid for life, but will only be able to be used on UK aircraft from April. This means permit to fly only, no EASA certified aircraft. You would need to pay to issue an EASA licence, as it is a new licence, the old one still exists, it would just no longer be valid on EASA annex 1 aircraft.

(b) On the basis that someone holds an EASA PPL or UK PPL they can not fly aerobatics without a rating, unless having attended a AOPA aerobatics, why can someone not provide evidence of credible aerobatics training.

I'm sure there was something about grandfather rights with logbook evidence, it's not one I've personally dealt with but I'm sure someone on here will know.

(c) Someone has a UKATPL valid to 2009, so it has expired, how does this person renew aUK ATPL, can they do this with a LPC, do they need a valid IR and class one medical.

A UK ATPL is valid for life. A UK issued JAR ATPL which expired in 2009 would now be considered an EASA ATPL, and when renewing any rating a new licence would be issued. This could be done with SEP(A) rating only, no need for an IR(A). You would obviously only be able to use the ratings you have.

d) Under a UK or EASA PPL, CPL or ATPL does the licence holder have rights to IR(R) rights in the UK.

No. This was the case with the old UK licence, but has not been the case since JAR came in, and is not the case under EASA.

(e) Can someone with a UK PPL or EASA obtain a clearance at the discretion of ATC.

Not sure what you're asking for. ATC do not know, ask or care what licence you have, they assume you are licenced for what you are doing. They will clear you IFR into an airway even if you only have a PPL(A). When things go wrong though, it will become clear in the investigation if you were operating outside of your privileges.

[anchorhold]

RTN11.... Thank you for taking the time to reply. When I said things are in flux, by that I mean the constant tinkering of regulations. by way of example someone can qualify and train on a UK aicraft in the 1980 for a UK PPL, yet under EASA rules the person as from April 2018 they can no longer flying the aircraft they trained on, they are simply confined to permit to fly. The simple solution was for the CAA to do a straight swap, without charge, but allow the person to retain their UK PPL. I say that because I inststed that I kept my UK PPL on gaining a CPL, the CAA were not happy about this.

Taking the issue of 'flux' over the last thirty years there have been numerous changes iby the Uk CAA in terms of flying training including MCC and CRM, alot which was not really thought out. To add to this after brexit will we revert to CAA licences. A case in point was that there was no exemption in respect of MCC for RAF crew as the CAA and JAA considered it single crew. The introduction of CRM was a utter shambles, gue to the FOIs.

Going back to the UK ATPL, if it is valid for life, why does it have a valid to date, when it is re-issued, likewise the UK PPL is the same.

Going on to converting the UK ATPL to an EASA ATPL, from memory the UK ATPL up to until around 2000, required 1500 hours PIC, but I think that the requirement of the UK ATPL became 1500 to include 500 multicrew. So under EASA can an UK ATPL be swapped for a EASA ATPL.

The ATC issue, upon entering class a airspace, was previously raised on pprune (private flying), while I accept that ATC can not ask if you hold a IR, so you could get a clearance, I am not sure if they can give a discrestionary clearance in the knowledge they know you do not have an IR.

[Whopity]

A UK ATPL is valid for life.

It is if issued post EASA, but prior to that it was 10 years (formerly 5)

(c) Someone has a UKATPL valid to 2009, so it has expired, how does this person renew a UK ATPL, can they do this with a LPC, do they need a valid IR and class one medical.

You need a vaild Class I medical for the reissue and ideally a Class rating or the licence will be useless and you will have to pay extra to have the rating added later. Expired ratings will go on the back of the licence and each rating will cost a fee to move it to the front. If you convert to an EASA licence (SRG1104) there is a tick box which enables you to have your old UK licence reissued for £40. An ATPL that Expired in 2009 is more that 7 years, so to renew the IR you would have to resit the IR theory exams unless you hold an ICAO IR.

(b) On the basis that someone holds an EASA PPL or UK PPL they can not fly aerobatics without a rating, unless having attended a AOPA aerobatics, why can someone not provide evidence of credible aerobatics training.

You do not need an Aerobatic Rating to fly an Annex II aircraft on a UK Licence. The Aerobatic Raing is an EASA rating which is required to fly aerobatics in an EASA aircraft from 8 April 2018. Grandfather rights have been granted to holders of an AOPA Certificate or those with Military Experience or a FI with aerobatic privileges.

[RTN11]

A UK ATPL is valid for life.
It is if issued post EASA, but prior to that it was 10 years (formerly 5)

Thanks Whopity, that's news to me. JAR was already well established by the time I started training, so all the old UK licences are a bit of a maze for me at times.

[Whopity]

Licence validity has seesawed over the years. In 1974 it was 5 years then by 1979 it was 10 years. The JAA wanted to make it annual but eventually they settled for 5 years and then EASA made it lifetime. UK PPLs were lifetime but that did cause them an administritave problem as nobody knew how long a lifetime was!