4-5 day ppl exam courses
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More that he should have a very reasonable expectation that the candidate already has the requisite knowledge.
At the end of the day it is my responsibility to assess that candidate is safe and I take that to mean I can check if they can explain separation in class D airspace, can tell me where they can find more information about the DOC of the ADN VOR, can describe the braking system of the aircraft they're flying.
So how does your proposal to publish all the questions prevent that?
One potential, though perhaps costly, method of deterring cheats would be to produce a larger number of exam sets. All would still include the same questions, but the answer sequence would be different. Thus 'the answer to Question 3 is A' might be true for one paper, but not for another with the very same question.
The massive flaw with the EASA system is that they assume because you pass a written test you can remember it all.
Imagine you take Air law as your first exam, and take your last exam 18 months later. You now have 3 years to pass your CPL and IR. And then 7 years Minimum to pass ATPL. That's 10½ years! And they assume you know everything because you passed a written test 10½ years ago? The FAA may have a piss-easy written test, but every flight test has an oral element. Fail that and you don't even go flying...
Imagine you take Air law as your first exam, and take your last exam 18 months later. You now have 3 years to pass your CPL and IR. And then 7 years Minimum to pass ATPL. That's 10½ years! And they assume you know everything because you passed a written test 10½ years ago? The FAA may have a piss-easy written test, but every flight test has an oral element. Fail that and you don't even go flying...
BEagle, I don't see how that would work. I'm sure people will recognise the questions rather than their number. We need to accept that, with the internet and social media, it's not possible to keep exam papers or a question bank secure.
I think the only approach that will work is to produce a huge question bank, with the set of questions and sequence for any candidate chosen at random from this very large set. The exam could then be sat using paper (my preference) or as an e-exam. There are several ways to implement this, here are some:
It's good that the exams are being improved, but I think it's unfortunate that their development has taken so long and has not been carried out in a more open way. I hope the process won't just produce a few new exams because they will probably be on the internet a couple of weeks after being published so much of the effort will have been wasted. The world has changed.
HFD
I think the only approach that will work is to produce a huge question bank, with the set of questions and sequence for any candidate chosen at random from this very large set. The exam could then be sat using paper (my preference) or as an e-exam. There are several ways to implement this, here are some:
- Most controlled: the CAA provide a website where examiners request a set of random numbers which index into the question bank for a particular candidate and exam
- Less controlled: the CAA publish tables of random numbers, from which an examiner randomly picks a set for each candidate
- Least controlled: examiners use a random number generator (such as https://www.random.org/integers/?num...t=html&rnd=new) to produce an index into the question bank
It's good that the exams are being improved, but I think it's unfortunate that their development has taken so long and has not been carried out in a more open way. I hope the process won't just produce a few new exams because they will probably be on the internet a couple of weeks after being published so much of the effort will have been wasted. The world has changed.
HFD
Last edited by hugh flung_dung; 10th Feb 2018 at 11:29. Reason: typo
The massive flaw with the EASA system is that they assume because you pass a written test you can remember it all.
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Good income though!
I run a flying school and totally agree that these courses are NOT sufficient for students;especially those looking to progress to Commercial Training.
It is a 'quick fix' but if the students are finally tested by a 'straight examiner' the lack of knowledge is quickly identified.
It is essential that the basic grounding is right; the ATPL is building on this!
It is a 'quick fix' but if the students are finally tested by a 'straight examiner' the lack of knowledge is quickly identified.
It is essential that the basic grounding is right; the ATPL is building on this!
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The PPL is NOT a prep school for an ATPL. Too many people have this attitude to it.
It is a leisure licence for the recreational pilot. What is required in terms of knowledge is what is needed for safe operation of a flight.
Does the candidate know the rules of the air, what VFR limits are, how the engine works, what to do if the oil pressure stays low after start-up, how to plan a VFR route, decoding a TAF, what the effect of icing is, etc.
Publish all the facts they are required to know in a Q@A book. If the VFR limit for an aircraft flying at less than 140kts IAS below 300 ft in Class G airspace is 1500 metres, if they have memorised this and know it, then how they have learnt it is IRRELEVANT.
This culture of secrecy advocated is utterly stupid.
The aim is to be inclusive at the private level. The "chop" mentality can be left to the commercial ATOs and the military.
It is a leisure licence for the recreational pilot. What is required in terms of knowledge is what is needed for safe operation of a flight.
Does the candidate know the rules of the air, what VFR limits are, how the engine works, what to do if the oil pressure stays low after start-up, how to plan a VFR route, decoding a TAF, what the effect of icing is, etc.
Publish all the facts they are required to know in a Q@A book. If the VFR limit for an aircraft flying at less than 140kts IAS below 300 ft in Class G airspace is 1500 metres, if they have memorised this and know it, then how they have learnt it is IRRELEVANT.
This culture of secrecy advocated is utterly stupid.
The aim is to be inclusive at the private level. The "chop" mentality can be left to the commercial ATOs and the military.
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Debate ? Opinions are there to be firmly stated, for the removal of all doubt, especially if they contradict a statement by someone else that one does not like or agree with.
After all , this is pprune ! :-)
After all , this is pprune ! :-)
I thought the Instructor part of pprune would have been more mature. Schoolboy error as I should have known better.
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Unless your are at University and write a thesis, all exams are a form of rote learning.
Look how the Government are trying to get students to learn the times table.
I personally would like to see exams in which you need 100% pass mark.
The questions would not be hard but 100% relevant, like collision avoidance rules.
I remember doing such a CAA exam around 1989 amongst the ATPL exams.
Isn't the US system a data bank of 1000 questions and 100 random on day of test?
Good luck if you can remember all those answers without some understanding of the subject. Why should questions be convoluted, most things are black or white.
Look how the Government are trying to get students to learn the times table.
I personally would like to see exams in which you need 100% pass mark.
The questions would not be hard but 100% relevant, like collision avoidance rules.
I remember doing such a CAA exam around 1989 amongst the ATPL exams.
Isn't the US system a data bank of 1000 questions and 100 random on day of test?
Good luck if you can remember all those answers without some understanding of the subject. Why should questions be convoluted, most things are black or white.
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B61... I entirely agree, the PPL is not preparation for the CPL or ATPL, they are very different qyalifications.. in the 1980s a PPL candidate did a GFT (skill test) and a solo QXC (qualifinying cross coubtry), then in the nineties there was a navigation test and separate skill test. Then at the beining of the 12st century someone came up with the brught idea that the PPL nav test and skill test, which in my opinion as an eximiner is far too long for a PPL candidate to concentrate and maintain good performance over ninety minutes.
On the subject of students records if a student changes schools and the old schoool will not pass on to the new school, the CAA should inforce this.
When I did my UK ATPL's I did them by self study with PPSC, it worked well for me, but it was not for everyone. It took me longer that the intensive courses, but I think I retained more that those who were on intensive courses, that is the case to date,although I might need to revise a compass swing, although I very much doubt that is still on the ATPL syllabus.
I do wonder if there are any PPL correspondance courses in the UK, As to why there does not seem much enthusiasm to teact the PPL theorecticals, particularky by retired pilots, it is probably down to the lack interest in the EASA training PPL training ethos.
On the subject of students records if a student changes schools and the old schoool will not pass on to the new school, the CAA should inforce this.
When I did my UK ATPL's I did them by self study with PPSC, it worked well for me, but it was not for everyone. It took me longer that the intensive courses, but I think I retained more that those who were on intensive courses, that is the case to date,although I might need to revise a compass swing, although I very much doubt that is still on the ATPL syllabus.
I do wonder if there are any PPL correspondance courses in the UK, As to why there does not seem much enthusiasm to teact the PPL theorecticals, particularky by retired pilots, it is probably down to the lack interest in the EASA training PPL training ethos.
The US requirement for PPL is one (1) test, 60 questions, 2.5 hours, 70% correct to pass. All electronic. Testing services charge US$ 150. The test results are good for 2 years. The checkride examiner will look at the codes for questions answered incorrectly and ask the examinee appropriate questions.
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One exam is a sensible approach
Marck,
I agree, 1 exam plus a subsequent oral test is a good idea. Transport Canada have an exam of 100 questions.
It would stop this "bite sized" learning.
The only EASA requirement "is no more than 120 questions across all exam(s)".
So it could be less, and just one exam.
I agree, 1 exam plus a subsequent oral test is a good idea. Transport Canada have an exam of 100 questions.
It would stop this "bite sized" learning.
The only EASA requirement "is no more than 120 questions across all exam(s)".
So it could be less, and just one exam.
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I cannot comment of the 4-5 day courses.
In preparing students for the exams, i have a suite of mock exams and like others my main approach is to get them to a) understand the question, b) understands why the correct answer is correct and c) understand why the incorrect answers are incorrect.
If there any weaknesses then we use the books and the references to remedy them.
The people i feel sorriest for are non native English speakers, for whom the unnecessarily complicated sentences can prove difficult.
In preparing students for the exams, i have a suite of mock exams and like others my main approach is to get them to a) understand the question, b) understands why the correct answer is correct and c) understand why the incorrect answers are incorrect.
If there any weaknesses then we use the books and the references to remedy them.
The people i feel sorriest for are non native English speakers, for whom the unnecessarily complicated sentences can prove difficult.
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Just as an aside, I understand that the Irish Aviation Authority will not accept EASA PPL exams taken within the UK system because they apparently cannot be 'verified' by the UK CAA. So those going on 5 day courses and taking the UK exams beware!
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Just as an aside, I understand that the Irish Aviation Authority will not accept EASA PPL exams taken within the UK system because they apparently cannot be 'verified' by the UK CAA. So those going on 5 day courses and taking the UK exams beware!
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Just as an aside, I understand that the Irish Aviation Authority will not accept EASA PPL exams taken within the UK system because they apparently cannot be 'verified' by the UK CAA. So those going on 5 day courses and taking the UK exams beware!
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