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Can one learn on N reg in EASAland?

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Can one learn on N reg in EASAland?

Old 5th Feb 2018, 10:47
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Can one learn on N reg in EASAland?

Probably a silly question but may a PPL student learn to fly in his own N registered Cessna 150 in the UK in order to qualify for an EASA PPL?
deefer dog is offline  
Old 5th Feb 2018, 14:09
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short answer is probably yes, with some difficulty. The long answer is considerably longer and starts with given that you can only train for a ppl within an approved training organisation, so you'd have to find one that would let you use your own aircraft. They would probably charge a significant rate for the instructor. A few more details about the circumstances might help
custardpsc is offline  
Old 5th Feb 2018, 17:20
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Don't know about teaching/learning. But, in the last year I have renewed an FAA BFR, and an EASA BFR, MEP, and IR in a UK based N Reg aircraft with no problems.
Dual qualified FA/EASA UK instructor/examiner.
cessnapete is offline  
Old 5th Feb 2018, 18:43
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and an EASA BFR
There is no such thing!
As already said the RF/ATO/DTO conducting your training would need to agrree the use of your aircraft which must be suitable for the training. You would need permission from the CAA too use such an aircraft, which could be granted to the owner for a fee.
Whopity is offline  
Old 5th Feb 2018, 23:30
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and an EASA BFR
Training for class rating revalidation, such as the one hour with an instructor, does not require a RF/ATO. As explained below, no additional permission is required.

You would need permission from the CAA to use such an aircraft, which could be granted to the owner for a fee.
Where the DfT issued ANO 2009 Article 225 permissions free of charge, this was handed to the UK CAA some time ago. They began to charge around £65 for each permission, where each permission issued was valid until the aircraft insurance or C of A was due for renewal which meant it was often only valid for a few months.

During the ANO Review (CAP 1414, CAP 1335), this was an issue raised by a number of stakeholders. ANO 2009 Article 225 refers to aerial work, which included a flight on which the flight instructor or examiner is remunerated.

ANO 2016 has aligned with EASA definitions and now talks of a "commercial operation", which would not include such a flight. Flight instructing and examining in EASA regulations fall within non-commercial operations.

ANO 2016 Article 252 now states:

Restriction on commercial operations in aircraft registered elsewhere than in an EEA state
252.—(1) Subject to paragraph (2), an aircraft registered elsewhere than in the United Kingdom must not fly over the United Kingdom for the purpose of commercial operations unless—
(a)the CAA has granted permission to do so to the operator or charterer of the aircraft; and
(b)any conditions, to which such permission may be subject, are satisfied.
...
Meaning of “commercial operation”

7. For the purposes of this Order, “commercial operation” means any operation of an aircraft other than for public transport—
(a)which is available to the public; or
(b)which, when not made available to the public, is performed under a contract between an operator and a customer, where the latter has no control over the operator, in return for remuneration or other valuable consideration.
Unfortunately, both the CAA website and Flight Examiner's Handbook are incorrect in their interpretation of the current regulations. Remunerated training and testing of an owner or part-owner in an aircraft registered elsewhere than in an EEA state (such as an N-reg) does not fall within the restrictions contained in ANO 2016 Article 252, and therefore no longer requires a specific permission from the DfT or CAA.

ANO 2016 states that the licensing requirements of the state of registration must be met. In the case of instructing and examining in a N-registered aircraft, the holder of a UK CAA-issued flight crew licence and instructor/examiner certificate are rendered valid in UK airspace by FAA regulation 14 CFR 61.3 and ANO Article 148/149.

The instructor/examiner should familiarise themselves with FAA regulations beforehand, and, if in doubt contact a FAA instructor for guidance. As mentioned by Whopity, in order to use the aircraft for a course towards issue/renewal of a licence/rating/certificate, the RF/ATO would need to check that the aircraft is suitable for use on that course and meet any Operations Manual requirements. No CAA involvement required.

There is, however, an issue with solo flying required on the course...

ifitaint...
ifitaintboeing is offline  
Old 6th Feb 2018, 12:24
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OK Whopity i'm not Lawyer, but an hour with an Instructor every 24 month3 to renew my EASA PPL by experience,whatever thats called!
Previously called CAA and DFt to use N Reg to renew an EASA I/R with EASA examiner. No Problem no fee and OK to do the hour described above. Even I know an ATO not required for that.
What a dogs breakfast UK licensing has become.
cessnapete is offline  
Old 6th Feb 2018, 18:25
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Thanks guys, and especially to ifitaint.

In this case the training will be conducted by an RTF, but seeing as ifitaint highlighted the issue of the solo flights I'm now wondering how these can be done. Any ideas?
deefer dog is offline  
Old 7th Feb 2018, 08:48
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You could rent a G-REG 150 from your club for the solo flights. Using the N-REG would probably require the instructor to be dual qualified - that is EASA and FAA - but he would probably need approval from the FAA for basic training rights. Unlikely outside of the USA I would guess.

Why not just train on a G-REG then fly the N-REG once licenced?
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Old 7th Feb 2018, 08:49
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Oh, insurance may also be a problem.
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Old 7th Feb 2018, 10:30
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but an hour with an Instructor every 24 month
There is no EASA requirement for an hour with an instructor ervery 24 months. One of the revalidation options under EASA is that you may use an hour with an instructor in the last 12 months of the validity of a SEP or TMG Class rating or you can do a Prof Check, or you can use another test such as a MEP revalidation or an IMC Prof Check. No BFR.

Using the N-REG would probably require the instructor to be dual qualified - that is EASA and FAA
The issue has nothing to do with the instructor, its the fact a pilot without a licence cannot legally fly the aeroplane in the UK.
Whopity is offline  
Old 8th Feb 2018, 19:01
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Originally Posted by Whopity View Post
... without a licence [the student] cannot legally fly the aeroplane [solo] in the UK.
It could surely be done with CAA permission (article 151(3) of ANO 2016) subject to a favourable interpretation from the Office of Chief Counsel for FAA on the meaning of 14 CFR 61.89(a)(5). The relevant clause in the US regulation states that a "student pilot [certificate holder] may not act as pilot-in-command of an aircraft [o]n an international flight."

I would contend that an international flight requires flight in the airspace of more than one state consistent with the definition established in article 96 of the Chicago Convention for an international air service. The US has used a similar definition, again for the unrelated purpose of an international air service, in 14 CFR 61.3(j) among others. The same definition was adopted in the Tokyo Convention in 1963 at the insistence of the US representative (Shubber, Sami. 1973. Jurisdiction Over Crimes on Board Aircraft. Pp 256–258.)

If FAA is of the opinion that 14 CFR 61.89(a)(5) disallows a solo training flight wholly within the airspace of a single foreign country then there is still a relevant ICAO Annex 1 standard, supported by 49 USC 40105(b), which states that a "student pilot shall not fly solo in an aircraft on an international flight unless by special or general arrangement between the Contracting States concerned."

Would UK CAA really turn down an opportunity to sell such a permission?
selfin is offline  
Old 9th Feb 2018, 09:16
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In a country where the default answer to anything is invariably no, rather than; "Let's see if we can find a way to make this happen", they probably wouldn't even think of the possibility of extra income.
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Old 17th Mar 2019, 19:09
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Originally Posted by ifitaintboeing View Post

Unfortunately, both the CAA website and Flight Examiner's Handbook are incorrect in their interpretation of the current regulations. Remunerated training and testing of an owner or part-owner in an aircraft registered elsewhere than in an EEA state (such as an N-reg) does not fall within the restrictions contained in ANO 2016 Article 252, and therefore no longer requires a specific permission from the DfT or CAA.

ifitaint...
Thanks ifitaint, if however the training were for a pilot who flies the owner about are you saying the Article 252 permit would still be required?
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Old 25th Mar 2019, 15:57
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A long time ago I was a solo student pilot flying N-reg 150s in Germany. This was through the local military flying club. And very much pre-EASA.

Back then there were numerous US military flying clubs around Germany. There is only one left. Its members, both German and American, learn to fly with FAA-instructors, FAA medicals, and FCC Restricted Radiotelephone Operator Permits. The students solo. Eventually some expensive DPE visits from the UK and they pass their checkrides.

There is no international flying involved, only intranational as they remain w/in Germany.
LTCTerry is offline  
Old 26th Mar 2019, 15:50
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But that was for an FAA licence. (Which I also did at a USAF flying club, in the UK, in the '90s) The OP was asking about training for an EASA licence.
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