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Airprox board!!

Old 10th Dec 2017, 22:27
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Airprox board!!

As an FI, I was involved earlier in the summer in an Airprox.
The situation was complex and neither my student or I saw the other aircraft submitting the Airprox.
I have always supported all safety related activities and I have cooperated fully with members of the investigating team.
The initial report was incorrect in several places and I submitted verbally (4 hours plus) and on email, clarification and more detail regarding a number of points. Despite all my input with the FACTS, the board settled with pretty much the original draft, with little or no change.
While clearly I'm disappointed with all the effort and time I provided to the board, we have lost an opportunity for others to learn from the experience, as the final report is not accurate and does nothing to help this kind of incident from happening again.
Disappointingly, I wont be in a rush next time to support such an investigation!!
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Old 11th Dec 2017, 16:31
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Why not submit the details here and let at least these readers have the chance to learn from the experience?
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Old 12th Dec 2017, 07:24
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I have to say the two airprox I have had one with three C130s going through the ATZ and another with two A10s. It was a complete waste of time.
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Old 15th Dec 2017, 16:45
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Airprox number?
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Old 16th Dec 2017, 09:43
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Re. the above, I e-mailed the Airprox board in September about incident 2017036. The jist of what I said follows,
"The last comment re. the C42 using a traffic service "by some members" is not only impractical but normally refused (due workload) by Farn. East, plus the C525 wasn't using that frequency! Also as an instructor ,a traffic service is impossible because of constant interruptions and inability to maintain a constant heading and altitude.
I am appalled that a 240kt jet can be released to Class G and then run at high speed through one of the busiest training areas in the south east. It's worth pointing out that for GA "below", to infringe controlled airspace above is considered a grave error and there are a perfectly sensible STARs to follow into most of the airfields taking jet traffic. In Class G it's very much "see and be seen" and given most traffic is GA, any electronic assistance, such as TCAS/ATC etc is only a bonus"
I can't find the Airprox board reply but they failed to answer any of the above points and I had the impression that there shouldn't be a problem if we use the correct ATC, giving traffic service or higher and we equip the aircraft with an array of collision avoidance electronics. I also pointed out that I was an experienced FI/FE and without the C42 FI and a lot of luck we would have had another midair collision.
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Old 16th Dec 2017, 10:10
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Over the last few decades I have completed quite a few AIRPROX reports. These days I don't bother because I found nothing useful comes from doing so, except to inform me I had a near miss, which I obviously knew already.

The last time I was informed that the pilot of the other aircraft (which descended from left to right and above, right across us, about fifty metres away) blamed me, despite not seeing us and so failing to give way iaw the rules of the air, stating I should have been on "his" local A/G frequency, although we were 14 nm from his airfield and in the process of contacting a radar unit.

Same with "LASER" reports. I've made statements on more than one occasion but nothing seems to be done. The last two times I was able to locate the exact source of the perpetrator. On the last occasion CCTV might well have been available. Nothing was done to collect evidence.
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Old 16th Dec 2017, 10:21
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If your in class G your on your own.

ATC doesn't release the Jet into class G it stops giving it a service in controlled airspace when it exits. Per say there is nothing they can do to prevent the Jet going into class G. A lot of operators have SOp's to prevent crew going into class G unless there is no other option. Biz jets tend not to have that SOp because its all about minimising costs and they do it regularly.

Most IFR jet pilots unless they have done GA in the area will not have a clue where the high intensity training areas are.

The issue you have brought up is a airspace classification issue.

There is no fix for it in Class G.
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Old 16th Dec 2017, 10:37
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Well, I had an airprox filed against me some years ago by a glider pilot. I was flying a vintage aircraft on a sortie which included aeros. I saw a glider as I exited a looping manoeuvre and turned to increase separation, it wasn’t that close.
I responded to the airprox report citing this and disputing the lack of separation claimed by the other party. Additionally I commented that the other party’s narrative of events were inaccurate and highly exaggerated. The Board decided to accept the glider pilot’s version of events, to ignore all my input such that I came away feeling very aggrieved. I vowed I would never deal with them again, a policy I maintain to this day.
I realise the Board has a difficult task but in events where it’s one word against another’s it should not apportion blame or imply the same without evidence from a third party.
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Old 16th Dec 2017, 10:40
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Well, I had an airprox filed against me some years ago by a glider pilot.
Point is though, they aren't supposed to apportion blame.

In any case, the great majority of AIRPOXs in Class G airspace occur due to a lack of, or late sightings.

I think many seem to use them to "get back at" the other pilot.
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Old 16th Dec 2017, 10:47
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You only have to look at the make up of the board to understand why they come to the conclusion that they do.

Very Mil and ATC heavy.

To be honest the pilots tend to get off lightly, they really are quite horrible to ATC short comings.
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Old 16th Dec 2017, 14:47
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Tescoapp, I'm aware of flying commercially in Class G, occasionally approaching ABZ we would "stray" when positioning for R34, not nice in IMC with a full B737. A quick solution would be to mandate flying in controlled airspace, where available, for all commercial operations and to be included in the ATO ops manuals. As for biz jet SOPs, of course there is, in the ATO/AOC docs. (and not including shortcuts to reduce costs!)
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Old 16th Dec 2017, 15:11
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Whats in the SOP's is up to the FOI in the country that's the AOC is held. Per say it is not illegal to fly CAT in class G.

For you to get a change in that you need to convince EASA to change EU ops.

Biz jets only have SOP's if they are operated off an AOC if they are private then there is nothing unless they want there to be something.

Get a slot and the boss wants to get to Biggin from Inverness. Cancel IFR down the A9 transit through GLA airspace through the Manchester Low level corridor and skirt round the London TMA to get in all at 249 knts. Perfectly legal

Absolutely nothing the airprox board can do anything about.
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Old 17th Dec 2017, 10:36
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It's kind of difficult for BizJets to get in and out of Farnborough or Oxford, or half the other airports they use in the UK, without going into Class G airspace. So it's not about "minimising costs".
They are also used to operating in many countries than the UK, where even quite major airports can be in Class E airspace. So VFR traffic can always be there. However, as with any other group of humans, there are variations in the standard of awareness and lookout.
I gave up reading airprox reports about twenty years ago, since there was virtually never anything constructive written.
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Old 17th Dec 2017, 15:55
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Back to the airprox board, my main point is that their conclusions and suggestions are at best, impractical. Also I would expect them to be an advocate for increased safety, not appear to state which pilot did or did not take avoiding action, with the implication that one or more wasn't maintaining a good lookout.
A solution isn't to insist on electronic awareness unless it's a common system, available to all pilots., or to rely on ATC in Class G. Re. biz jets or any other CAT, if a pilot deliberately left controlled airspace to reduce airtime,(and please the boss), it would be interesting to see the legal/insurance ramifications after a midair. Yes I know Class G can be flown by all and a few airports have visual/instrument apps. outside controlled airspace but I would imagine most AOC ops manuals would require CAS where possible.
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