Action after Stall Recovery

[PSF2J]

Yes, they need to understand. If they don't then how do they know what they are looking for and what to do in the SSR? The SSR is used to get them out of the sh1t. I want them to understand why they got into the sh1t and to not go there in the first place.

The SSR is a recovery. The education should be not getting there in the first place. But if they do, then here is the technique to deal with it.

Am I wrong?

[PSF2J]

We are also talking about TRAINING students to enable them to deal with this instinctively when low to the ground as you say BPF. However, the instinct has to be DEVELOPED. This is our job as instructors.

[InSoMnIaC]

OP -

Action after Stall Recovery

Genghis the Engineer -

I see a stall recovery in exactly the same way. Any pilot should have an instinctive stall response - stick forward, full power, ball in the middle with rudder, climb attitude. That protects life and aircraft, THEN once that's done there's time to "Do what is appropriate for the situation". The alternative is for things to get worse whilst you use non-existent thinking time to decide upon the right actions.

I agree that you should teach critical actions such as stall recovery in a way that they become instinctive however post stall recovery you do need to "do what is appropriate for the situation".

scenario. flying along at FL350 in a heavy jet. engine fails. you inadvertently enter a stall (your situational awareness is low in this scenario of course). this leads you to the stall recovery. what next??

[dobbin1]

scenario. flying along at FL350 in a heavy jet. engine fails. you inadvertently enter a stall (your situational awareness is low in this scenario of course). this leads you to the stall recovery. what next??

Look for a new job?

[InSoMnIaC]

Look for a new job?

but before that, according to some you need to adopt a "climb attitude"

[Level Attitude]

Any pilot should have an instinctive stall response - stick forward, full power, ball in the middle with rudder, climb attitude

GtE, I agreed with just about everything in your post but I think your summary paragraph, above, is wrong.

A Standard Stall Recovery is:
1) Reduce AoA
2) Add (full) Power
3) Rudder to keep aircraft in balance/prevent further yaw
NB: 3) Is nice but, in my opinion, not vital as long as 1) and then 2) are carried out.

Once recovered from a stall, a recovery from an unusual attitude may/is likely to be required.
Which would be:
1) Power - Less(Idle)/More(Full) as situation warrants
2) Coordinated use of Controls to Roll the wings to the nearest horizon
3) Pitch - Up/Down as situation warrants
I agree that after a stall recovery it is unlikely that 1) will need to be changed and 3) is very likely to be (but not always) Pitch Up BUT 2) must have been performed before 3).

Recovering from a stall under IF will, I suggest, always be to S&L

However, when flying visually, particularly at the PPL level, I would strongly advocate that a SSR should always end in a Best Rate Climb.

Reason:
One of the key symptoms of a stall is a high ROD and a, possibly too vigorous, recovery may result in a dive.
PPL Stall 1 = Hold the aircraft in the stall until Examiner tells you to recover = Lots of height loss.
PPL Stalls 2 & 3 are only approaches to the stall. However they are simulating a 'Base to Final Turn' and 'On Final but Low'. Anything wrong on an approach should always = 'Go Around' so a climb is required.

Irrespective of my opinion, DB6 has the correct answer to the OP's question:

Fireflybob, the examiner should have specified what he wanted to see after recovery in his briefing

[Genghis the Engineer]

3) Rudder to keep aircraft in balance/prevent further yaw
NB: 3) Is nice but, in my opinion, not vital as long as 1) and then 2) are carried out.

Wouldn't dispute that.

My point, perhaps missed, was that worrying about maintaining constant heading is silly, and the only thing you should be doing with the rudder is keeping the ball in the middle.


(At least nobody has mentioned "picking up the wing with rudder" )

G

[skyhighfallguy]

step one after stall recovery, DO NOT STALL AGAIN

IF at high altitude , descend

IF at low altitude CLIMB

if at medium altitude , maintain

pretty easy isn't it?

[InSoMnIaC]

One of the key symptoms of a stall is a high ROD

are you sure about that?

[LostYetAgain]

High RoD is indeed one of the stall symptoms that we teach, and the SSR is taught as CCCF (Control Column Centrally Forward). However, that all assumes "right way up" flight which I'm sure covers almost all but the most unusual of unexpected stall events.

If you like to throw the scenery round the aircraft, the SSR offers insufficient, and in some cases inappropriate, guidance. it is easy to be climbing quite quickly whilst stalled.

Although thankfully unusual, it is also possible to stall the other aerofoils that are generally found towards the rear of the aircraft.

[InSoMnIaC]

It is very possible to stall and be climbing/descending/high speed/low speed. And in any attitude.

If you are teaching high RoD as a symptom of a stall you are misleading your students. Now a spiral dive does produce a high RoD and if you are teaching high RoD = stalling then guess what the student will do?

Whats wrong with teaching them to recognise the onset of buffeting instead.

Btw what produces a higher RoD a sprial dive or a spin?

[TheOddOne]

Whats wrong with teaching them to recognise the onset of buffeting instead.

Nothing, if your aircraft exhibits noticeable pre-stall buffet. There are popular training types that show little obvious buffet (that would be apparent to a student) in the initial stalling exercise from a clean airframe, power off, erect, level flight situation. We demonstrate a suite of signs leading to the stall, all the symptoms of low airspeed including sloppy controls and reducing wind noise, nose high attitude, aft column and lack of ability to maintain altitude (leading to an indicated RoD). We would say in the pre-flight brief that pre-stall buffet is a symptom, but warn that they might not experience it in our aircraft.

Some might say that training should not be conducted in aircraft that do not exhibit all the symptoms or which do not spin etc.

TOO

[Genghis the Engineer]

Some might say that training should not be conducted in aircraft that do not exhibit all the symptoms or which do not spin etc.

Although if that viewpoint were carried, you'd have to replace around 70% of the world's training aeroplanes.

I tend to think that although there's a near-universal stall recovery, there are not universal stall warning symptoms, and that's where pilots need to know their individual aeroplane - this should be impressed upon them throughout their training.

G

[Level Attitude]

One of the key symptoms of a stall is a high ROD

are you sure about that?

YES.
1) Specifically:
That quote is from a paragraph I wrote regarding PPL level stalling.

It is very possible to stall and be climbing/descending/high speed/low speed. And in any attitude.

and 2) Generically:
If recovery action is not taken, even a stall (as opposed to an approach to a stall) entered from any flight mode will, fairly quickly, result in a high RoD - possibly with the added bonus of auto-rotation.

If you are teaching high RoD as a symptom of a stall you are misleading your students. Now a spiral dive does produce a high RoD and if you are teaching high RoD = stalling then guess what the student will do?

Of course a dive will result in a high RoD. Forget students, probably every human on earth could understand that.

BUT:
Climb Attitude: Gaining height = Climb; whereas High RoD = Stall
Slow Flight Attitude: Level Flight = Slow Flight: whereas High RoD = Stall

[fireflybob]

I prefer to use the term "stall identification" rather than "symptoms".

A stall (as opposed to the "warnings" that we are approaching a stall) is identified by heavy buffet (but as has been said before this can be type dependent), aircraft descending, nose pitching "down", and possible wing drop.

Any one of these can occur first depending on the nature of the stall.

I recall the Chipmunk Flight Manual notes on spinning making a distinction between a semi stalled spiral dive (where the airspeed is increasing) and a spin (where the airspeed is reasonably constant and low with high rate of descent) and not to confuse the two with respect to recovery action.

[nick14]

There are now four generally accepted signs of a stall that I teach on the jet and SEP:

Lack of roll control
Lack of pitch control
Buffeting
Inability to arrest descent rate

These generally apply to all conditions and should always result in the same action which is to reduce the angle of attack whichever way that might be, forward or backward.

As for what to do after, in the Jets it's return to desired flight path for which I would expect a certain level of SA. For the SEP side a climb is the norm but an awareness of the desired flight path could be taught.

I would always however ensure that the reason I teach a particular technique is to improve the student's competence rather than to satisfy an examiner. If I do my job properly the student will be competent and by that very virtue able to pass a check but I never teach for test.

[Pull what]

Lack of roll control
Lack of pitch control
Buffeting
Inability to arrest descent rate

What you are alluding to is actually Loss of Control(a much better title than stalling), however lack of pitch control is incorrect unless C152's and other trainers are fitted with pushers to get the nose over!

Most GA training aircraft in the power off flaps zero configurations do have a degree of roll control at the buffet and beyond and its even a requirement for certification.

However i wonder if you guys who instruct in the UK have ever read the Flight Examiners Handbook.

PPL Skill Test

Stalling:
Stall Recovery from:
• Clean, S&L power off, I will tell you when to recover.
• Base Turn using intermediate flap, gear, approach power with 20° to 30° AOB recovering at the first sign of the approaching stall.
• Final Approach stall, full flap, gear, approach power on a datum heading recovering at the first sign of the approaching stall.
All recoveries with minimum height loss, recovering back to the best rate of climb.

Pretty much common sense for PPL training as the most likely place a PPL is going to stall is in the circuit, as accidents constantly show. So if your guy stalls at 300 feet surely you would really hope he recovers with the minimum height loss and climbs away rather than takes a daisy cutter straight and level run through the approach scenery! This type of recovery also compliments the go around too and again common sense should tell you that some go arounds are from a speed that would satisfy the test requirement of 'at the first sign of the approaching stall'

Oh and the best teaching ADM statement is, after an emergency or abnormal fly the aircraft to the safest place. After a 300 feet height loss near the ground on the approach you are unlikely to find the safest place by flying level!

[Tourist]

Sorry to intrude, but surely there are other stall recoveries?

For example, you are doing a max rate turn and you manuever stall. Easing off the back pressure immediately unstalls the aircraft.

Job done?

There is no requirement in this scenario to add power (you will probably already be at max) and as long as you are under control there is nothing wrong with continuing the turn, surely?

[Genghis the Engineer]

Perhaps, depending upon the aircraft type and its stall characteristics.

But the point, in my opinion, is that there should be a correct and universal set of stall recovery actions - drilled until they're flown automatically. A deliberate change from that is fine: and anybody flying max rate turns is probably sufficiently on top of their game and the aeroplane to do that. But, that should be a deliberate change from the default action only.

G

[Tourist]

That's fine Ghengis, but some aircraft will require quite different techniques.

I accept that the "standard stall recovery" will work for most/all puddle jumpers, however an Airbus or a turboprop will require different techniques. All based around reducing angle of attack, yes, but quite different in execution.

A turboprop is likely to want early power, whereas an airliner you may want to be waiting a long long time before you think about adding power.
If there is a wingdrop, again the recovery will be quite different.

My point being that if you are teaching a student who will be in an airline within 200hrs, then perhaps the standard stall recovery drilled into him may do him no favours.