TEM and Airmanship
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: England
Posts: 858
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Obviously C but youve missed the point again.
HASELL is a check before making a planned steep turn as an exercise not a check you would make before making an emergency break, as Ive said at least 3 times now.
HASELL is a check before making a planned steep turn as an exercise not a check you would make before making an emergency break, as Ive said at least 3 times now.
Pull what wrote:
HASELL is emphatically NOT a check required before flying steep turns whether planned or as avoidance.
Fluff it up however you like with talk of TEM and associated headshrinker-horse$hit, but you're totally wrong - in at least 3 posts.
Who started the nonsense of HASELL before steep turns?
HASELL is a check before making a planned steep turn as an exercise not a check you would make before making an emergency break, as Ive said at least 3 times now.
Fluff it up however you like with talk of TEM and associated headshrinker-horse$hit, but you're totally wrong - in at least 3 posts.
Who started the nonsense of HASELL before steep turns?
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: England
Posts: 858
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Who started the nonsense of HASELL before steep turns?
I quote from his book - AFE- The Private Pilot Licence Course-Exercise 15 (bottom of the page)
HASELL
It is usual to carry out HASELL or HELL checks before starting a steep turn
If you ever start instructing again you might want to read that book as its the largest selling UK flying training book.
Meanwhile the first book on flying training after the war, and I know you will be familiar with this one says:
Birch & Bramson - FLIGHT BRIEFING FOR PILOTS Vol 1(5th edition)
Page 227
Ex 15 Advanced Turning
PRE FLIGHT BRIEFING
AIRMANSHIP
Height
Airframe
Security
Engine
Location
Lookout
Suitability of weather
I do commend you on the use of the word emphatic though, its one of my favourites, along with arrogance and ignorance!
Last edited by Pull what; 20th Jul 2015 at 01:08.
Putting your snide comments aside, Pull What, you will probably recall that the Advanced Turning exercise also includes:
So for those elements of the training exercise, it would be normal to include HASELL checks. But for a simple everyday 45° AoB steep turn, HASELL checks are not required.
Approach to the stall in the turn
Recognition of and recovery from the spiral dive
Recovery from other unusual attitudes
Recognition of and recovery from the spiral dive
Recovery from other unusual attitudes
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: England
Posts: 858
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Oh dear-wrong again
Birch & Bramson show two pages of pre flight briefings for steep turns
Ex 15 Advanced Turning (Steep Turns and Steep Descending Turns) on page 227, as quoted above in my earlier post where under Airmanship it goes through a complete HASELLS check
On page 228 Ex 15 Advanced Turning (Approach to the Stall, Spiral Dive: Maximum Rate Turn) under AIRMANSHIP it states AS FOR STEEP TURN
Mr Pratt doesnt differentiate either between what type of steep turn you are carrying out he merely states (quote) "it is usual to carry out HASELL or HELL checks before starting a steep turn.
You asked the question,
I am merely answering your question using two of the best selling UK training manuals.
Birch & Bramson show two pages of pre flight briefings for steep turns
Ex 15 Advanced Turning (Steep Turns and Steep Descending Turns) on page 227, as quoted above in my earlier post where under Airmanship it goes through a complete HASELLS check
On page 228 Ex 15 Advanced Turning (Approach to the Stall, Spiral Dive: Maximum Rate Turn) under AIRMANSHIP it states AS FOR STEEP TURN
Mr Pratt doesnt differentiate either between what type of steep turn you are carrying out he merely states (quote) "it is usual to carry out HASELL or HELL checks before starting a steep turn.
You asked the question,
Who started the nonsense of HASELL before steep turns?
Having just spoken with him, the author agrees that HASELL checks before academic steep turns are unnecessary, they are ONLY required for the 'Approach to the stall in the turn, Recognition of and recovery from the spiral dive and Recovery from other unusual attitudes' elements of Exercise 15.....
The next edition of his books may well clarify this....
The next edition of his books may well clarify this....
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 413
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Having just spoken with him, the author agrees that HASELL checks before academic steep turns are unnecessary
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: England
Posts: 858
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Who decided he was right anyway? Why are his (and others) guides and manuals the ones that everyone else works from?
Having just spoken with him, the author agrees that HASELL checks before academic steep turns are unnecessary
At the end of the day you are either an 'under trainer' or an 'over trainer'. In my experience few instructors actually instruct to any rigid syllabus anyway, they seem to make it up as they go along so making a safety check before a steep turn is the least of our worries.
Already done to death: http://www.pprune.org/flying-instruc...urns-ex15.html
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: England
Posts: 858
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes it has been done to death but I am the first to mention it is(HASELL) actually contained in two of the UK best selling flying traing manuals so what does that tell you? It tells me that instructors never bother reading the very books they telll their students to go and read!
Bugle learned to fly at Cranfield in the 60s when Birch & Bramson was the ONLY text book in the UK so I do not understand why he poses the question -who started this nonsense?
The CAA examiner I mentioned in the seminar reacted in the same way with the same question. It proves to me that this is an indsustry where the right hand doesnt know what the left hand is doing and people have forgotten the main objective of producing the safest possible pilot. Ego before student isnt best practice even on forums
Bugle learned to fly at Cranfield in the 60s when Birch & Bramson was the ONLY text book in the UK so I do not understand why he poses the question -who started this nonsense?
The CAA examiner I mentioned in the seminar reacted in the same way with the same question. It proves to me that this is an indsustry where the right hand doesnt know what the left hand is doing and people have forgotten the main objective of producing the safest possible pilot. Ego before student isnt best practice even on forums
I note your usual childish sniping, Pull what.... Do grow up.
Actually I learned to fly in 1968 under the tutelage of Ron Campbell, so the instructors didn't need to crib from some industry book - they taught as Ron required. They were also checked by HQ CFS as they taught RAF Scholarship holders, such as the 6 of us on my course.
And we didn't do pre-stalling / spinning checks before practising steep turns.
Actually I learned to fly in 1968 under the tutelage of Ron Campbell, so the instructors didn't need to crib from some industry book - they taught as Ron required. They were also checked by HQ CFS as they taught RAF Scholarship holders, such as the 6 of us on my course.
And we didn't do pre-stalling / spinning checks before practising steep turns.
Gentlemen. Is it really worth falling out over this?
I thnk that formal 'HASELL' checks are universally accepted for stalling/spinning/aeros, debatable for UP/UA recoveries, and unnecessary for simple steep turn practice.
I understand, however, that some instructors will prefer to include them for all of the above, and, as they can be completed in a relatively short time, I really don't see what the problem is with that.
Textbooks are there to educate and inform, not to be followed slavishly.
MJ
I thnk that formal 'HASELL' checks are universally accepted for stalling/spinning/aeros, debatable for UP/UA recoveries, and unnecessary for simple steep turn practice.
I understand, however, that some instructors will prefer to include them for all of the above, and, as they can be completed in a relatively short time, I really don't see what the problem is with that.
Textbooks are there to educate and inform, not to be followed slavishly.
MJ
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 441
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Surely common sense dictates that you aren't going to carry out steep turns when you are too low, close to cloud, in controlled airspace or near airfields - and a good lookout both before and during the manoeuvre is a must.
So, without trying you've completed H*LL of the HELL check. Regularly monitoring the engine(s) is also good airmanship.
Therefore you don't need a book and an argument to fly safely when practising steep turns
Combine a level steep turn with some other training exercise or variation on the theme (as mentioned above) and then it would certainly be good practice, and common sense, to add in the additional items from the HASELL checks.
Mountains and molehills.
So, without trying you've completed H*LL of the HELL check. Regularly monitoring the engine(s) is also good airmanship.
Therefore you don't need a book and an argument to fly safely when practising steep turns
Combine a level steep turn with some other training exercise or variation on the theme (as mentioned above) and then it would certainly be good practice, and common sense, to add in the additional items from the HASELL checks.
Mountains and molehills.
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: In an ever changing place
Posts: 1,039
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Surely common sense dictates that you aren't going to carry out steep turns when you are too low, close to cloud, in controlled airspace or near airfields.
The steep turn is to teach a student to learn the safe co-ordinated use of the controls while maintaining accuracy, ultimately the time they are probably going to use this style of manoeuvre is as an avoidance manoeuvre from another aircraft, the whole object of instructing is to introduce the student to as many real situations as possible not hand hold them through the whole of their course.
Last edited by Above The Clouds; 23rd Jul 2015 at 20:11.
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Devon
Posts: 96
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Airmanship,TEM
As an FIC looking to return to flying after a 4 year break TEM is certainly something I need to get to grips with.
I agree that few FIs cannot give a clear definition of Airmanship. This used to be a question I put to them on the course and usually got some very noble, sometimes waffly examples of Airmanship, but not a definition.
The definition I gave was
"the elements required for safe and efficient flight".
I would like to hear how FIs present TEM in pre-flight briefings. Has anybody replaced the "Airmanship" heading with "TEM"? do they add an extra "TEM" heading.
I can imagine plenty of examples that could come under either heading.
I agree that few FIs cannot give a clear definition of Airmanship. This used to be a question I put to them on the course and usually got some very noble, sometimes waffly examples of Airmanship, but not a definition.
The definition I gave was
"the elements required for safe and efficient flight".
I would like to hear how FIs present TEM in pre-flight briefings. Has anybody replaced the "Airmanship" heading with "TEM"? do they add an extra "TEM" heading.
I can imagine plenty of examples that could come under either heading.
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: hayling island
Posts: 273
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To me it's a strom in a tea cup, TEM is Airmanship just with with more bells and whistles.
The ultimate aim is a safe flight for everyone and with all these changes brought in, flight safety has not improved as fast as the aircraft, how to corect it is ahard one.
The ultimate aim is a safe flight for everyone and with all these changes brought in, flight safety has not improved as fast as the aircraft, how to corect it is ahard one.
