TEM and Airmanship
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I think quite a few instructors forget the main basic objective of the PPL, to produce a qualified pilot that can carry passengers safely within the limitations of their low experience.
Whether you, as an instructor, think that the HASELL check shouldnt be done or not shouldnt really influence your decision to give a student the safety net of such a check and allow him to make the choice of whether such a check is relevant, based on his capability and experience, rather than yours. Low hour pilots still need a duty of care especially when an instructor isnt directly involved after licence issue.
Lack of H has killed quite a few pilots with steep turn manoevres and recently killed a student and instructor in a Tomahawk with slow flying-would you be happy for your student to be doing a series of steep turns in a Tommy at 2000 feet over a built up area without having a lookout?
How many PPL after getting their license make straight for the local area and their houses and guess what they do over them sometimes at around a 1000 feet or even lower.
The fact that the skills test calls for a 45 degree turn doesnt mean that 60 degree turns cannot be taught and practiced and it will not stop the more adventurous pilot after PPL either trying them out at low level and exceeding 45 degrees especially with the distraction of looking at or trying to photograph something at low level.
Mis handled steep turns can lead to loss of control and any exercise that involves a potential loss of control needs some form of memory jog safety check beforehand.
Whether you, as an instructor, think that the HASELL check shouldnt be done or not shouldnt really influence your decision to give a student the safety net of such a check and allow him to make the choice of whether such a check is relevant, based on his capability and experience, rather than yours. Low hour pilots still need a duty of care especially when an instructor isnt directly involved after licence issue.
Lack of H has killed quite a few pilots with steep turn manoevres and recently killed a student and instructor in a Tomahawk with slow flying-would you be happy for your student to be doing a series of steep turns in a Tommy at 2000 feet over a built up area without having a lookout?
How many PPL after getting their license make straight for the local area and their houses and guess what they do over them sometimes at around a 1000 feet or even lower.
The fact that the skills test calls for a 45 degree turn doesnt mean that 60 degree turns cannot be taught and practiced and it will not stop the more adventurous pilot after PPL either trying them out at low level and exceeding 45 degrees especially with the distraction of looking at or trying to photograph something at low level.
Mis handled steep turns can lead to loss of control and any exercise that involves a potential loss of control needs some form of memory jog safety check beforehand.
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Whopity, I guess you also practice the base-to-final stall/incipient spin at about 500ft in the cct or do you do a bit of TEM having considered you're only simulating a scenario? 
HASELL checks are a precursor to aerobatics, spinning, spiral dives etc when the aircraft is likely to be in a position where avoidance may be compromised. In the case of a steep turn you are training the student to fly a co-ordinated level turn with the main objective of being able to avoid someone or something at any level. The aircraft is under control and introducing inappropriate checks may delay the necessary action. Students will subconsciously recall the first demo that you give them. Lookout is essential as always.
I would not teach a student to do steep turns at 500 feet initially, because the teaching exercise includes spiral dive entry and recovery along with stalling in the turn; items frequently omitted by the FI. The objective is to teach the student how to do it correctly before moving on to the upset situation where appropriate checks should be conducted.
A student ready for a licence skill test should be able to demonstrate a steep turn at 500 ft following a good lookout, and used to be conducted as such on the UK PPL skill test as part of the low level section.
In the case of a stall (base turn or otherwise) you are training the student to recognise and recover from a situation that they should not find themselves in wheras, the steep turn is a manoeuvre they should be ably to fly with certainty and precision.
I would not teach a student to do steep turns at 500 feet initially, because the teaching exercise includes spiral dive entry and recovery along with stalling in the turn; items frequently omitted by the FI. The objective is to teach the student how to do it correctly before moving on to the upset situation where appropriate checks should be conducted.
A student ready for a licence skill test should be able to demonstrate a steep turn at 500 ft following a good lookout, and used to be conducted as such on the UK PPL skill test as part of the low level section.
In the case of a stall (base turn or otherwise) you are training the student to recognise and recover from a situation that they should not find themselves in wheras, the steep turn is a manoeuvre they should be ably to fly with certainty and precision.
Firstly, if I'm teaching/examining steep turns I'll damn well make sure a HASELL/HELL check is done, normally by myself.
One check taught to me by a young and inexperienced instructor who invented it, was a short final check in a Cessna 150. It was PPUFF checks on final. It stood for Prop Pitch Control not applicable. Power Poles (Now that is a case for TEM!). Undercarriage Fixed therefore not applicable. Flaps. Feathered Friends. (TEM, again which included which way to turn/descend/climb) if a bird come s your way
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In a Boeing 737 full flight simulator. Does that means we must do a HASELL check first?
Firstly, if I'm teaching/examining steep turns I'll damn well make sure a HASELL/HELL check is done
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Whopity you're missing the point. I don't give a flying f*** whether the student does a HASELL check. What I do do is make sure that the exercise I'm about to complete can be done safely - TEM. Indeed, in your second paragraph you've indicated that you do TEM before commencing an initial steep turn exercise (you mention a safe height - i.e. not 500ft). Do you really launch into an instructional steep turn without having a good look (i.e. not just standard lookout)? If you do, what county do you frequent? 
Centaurus, go and do an intentional stall in you 737 for real without doing a HASELL check (or equivalent) and you will be fired.
Centaurus, go and do an intentional stall in you 737 for real without doing a HASELL check (or equivalent) and you will be fired.
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Whopity you seem confused by the syllabus, the prime reason for teaching steep turns is to teach a precision exercise, there is nothing in the present syllabus that calls for collision avoidance turns nor is there in tbe skill test.
The skill test calls for a steep turn through 360 degrees-this isnt a collision avoidance turn!
The skill test also calls for a a steep gliding turn not below 40 degree angle of bank
Standard Doc 19 (skill test) mentions a steep turn in a gliding configuration at low level and again this is not for collision avoidance
However I certainly teach collision avoidance but it nothing like the turn called for in the syllabus and test, its an abrupt emergency turn right at max rate for 90 degrees
The skill test calls for a steep turn through 360 degrees-this isnt a collision avoidance turn!
The skill test also calls for a a steep gliding turn not below 40 degree angle of bank
A student ready for a licence skill test should be able to demonstrate a steep turn at 500 ft following a good lookout, and used to be conducted as such on the UK PPL skill test as part of the low level section.
However I certainly teach collision avoidance but it nothing like the turn called for in the syllabus and test, its an abrupt emergency turn right at max rate for 90 degrees
This is interesting, having been teaching steep turns this morning, my mind's fresh.
I can absolutely see Whopity's viewpoint that a steep turn is an avoidance manoeuvre, without pause or checks. That would appear to match Pull What's "collision avoidance" turns, and for that matter how I think of the manoeuvre and both practice and teach it.
But the 360deg turn - what's that for? A co-ordination exercise? A primer for aerobatics one day? Demonstration of situational awareness? Setting up for teaching about spiral dive and recovery? I can see it has value for all of those: and hopefully most good instructors use it for most of those reasons - but does that require HASELL checks in any case? You're not going into negative g, you're not going near any mode that's likely to cause a loss of control. If it's flown faintly in balance, nothing that's in the aeroplane should shift. The engine is not being asked to do anything special. On the other hand, getting pilots into the habit of doing HASELL checks before a steep turn might create a "bad habit" pause when they need to do a steep turn for safety.
So why HASELL checks? Yes before stalling, but steep turns? Can't see the argument.
G
I can absolutely see Whopity's viewpoint that a steep turn is an avoidance manoeuvre, without pause or checks. That would appear to match Pull What's "collision avoidance" turns, and for that matter how I think of the manoeuvre and both practice and teach it.
But the 360deg turn - what's that for? A co-ordination exercise? A primer for aerobatics one day? Demonstration of situational awareness? Setting up for teaching about spiral dive and recovery? I can see it has value for all of those: and hopefully most good instructors use it for most of those reasons - but does that require HASELL checks in any case? You're not going into negative g, you're not going near any mode that's likely to cause a loss of control. If it's flown faintly in balance, nothing that's in the aeroplane should shift. The engine is not being asked to do anything special. On the other hand, getting pilots into the habit of doing HASELL checks before a steep turn might create a "bad habit" pause when they need to do a steep turn for safety.
So why HASELL checks? Yes before stalling, but steep turns? Can't see the argument.
G
the prime reason for teaching steep turns is to teach a precision exercise,
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The above post suggests the PIC is a) terminally stupid, b) totally incompetant or c) suffering from god syndrome...
Was it a towered/ information airfield? I'd have called the tower emergency number & asked them to deny take off clearance, the actions of the PIC could have vast implications on the whole GA community... Imagine the Prop failing a few hundred feet off the ground
Inexcusable
Was it a towered/ information airfield? I'd have called the tower emergency number & asked them to deny take off clearance, the actions of the PIC could have vast implications on the whole GA community... Imagine the Prop failing a few hundred feet off the ground
Inexcusable
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At risk of thread drift, it was information and pilot could not be physically stopped.
Whopity has advised in the past contacting the pilot's insurance company if ever there is a question about a pilot/aircraft, but this only works if they give their details.
Worst airmanship/TEM I think I have ever seen.
Whopity has advised in the past contacting the pilot's insurance company if ever there is a question about a pilot/aircraft, but this only works if they give their details.
Worst airmanship/TEM I think I have ever seen.
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So what would you do if the lookout turn (second L) was at 60 degrees of bank?
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I am 100% with Whopity on this one as well. What really frustrates me with the industry as a whole, is this idea and philosophy of training for test. The result is a pilot who can execute a specified routine of manoeuvres to certain criteria. If something out of scope occurs they are ill equipped to deal with it.
Ask yourself why that manoeuvre is in the test schedule in the first place.
It's an avoidance manoeuvre and so HASELL checks by the student in the setup are silly. Remember that the human brain will revert to the first taught response under pressure.
Ask yourself why that manoeuvre is in the test schedule in the first place.
It's an avoidance manoeuvre and so HASELL checks by the student in the setup are silly. Remember that the human brain will revert to the first taught response under pressure.
What really frustrates me with the industry as a whole, is this idea and philosophy of training for test. The result is a pilot who can execute a specified routine of manoeuvres to certain criteria. If something out of scope occurs they are ill equipped to deal with it.
The syllabus for instrument ratings includes seven cross country IFR dual flights followed by the final test for the instrument rating. Instead of sticking to the CAA approved syllabus and sticking to separate routes and destinations on each dual flight, the school has its students flying the same route seven times and with expected R/T calls written on a piece of paper and used by the students. The test itself covers exactly the same route as those previously.
This is because they often lack the English language skills needed to do the cross-country flight and cover all the separation with other aircraft talking requirements.
It gets better. Before doing the first of the seven IFR cross-country exercises and the final test as above, the students "fly" exactly the same route as the test seven times in a simulator.
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It's an avoidance manoeuvre and so HASELL checks by the student in the setup are silly. Remember that the human brain will revert to the first taught response under pressure.
What you are suggesting then is that a pilot confronted with a head on collision will go through a HASELL check, including a 360 degree clearing turn turn before making a avoiding turn to miss the traffic, thats as ridiculous as saying that a pilot who stalls the aircraft will do a HASELL check before recovery because that's what he always taught to do, how ridiculous.
Ask yourself why that manoeuvre is in the test schedule in the first place.
If you feel that a silly HASELL check has no relevance fine but I wonder if you would authorise a student in a Tomahawk to do a max rate steep turn over the centre of Birmingham at 500 feet agl?
If you feel that a silly HASELL check has no relevance fine but I wonder if you would authorise a student in a Tomahawk to do a max rate steep turn over the centre of Birmingham at 500 feet agl?
My student, having been taught Threat & Error Management, would act accordingly (but he/she wouldn't do HASELL before a steep turn).
Scenario (not Birmingham probably, but could be High Wycombe, Maidenhead, Sheffield...)
500ft, on approach, over a connurbation, perfectly legally.
Some halfwit with a drone zips it right onto your flight path.
Do you:-
(a) hit it, and hope that it's within the birdstrike criteria
(b) Start doing your HASELL checks
(c) Use max aileron to roll into a steep turn, apply some extra power, then pull just short of the stall warner to get out of the way.
G
500ft, on approach, over a connurbation, perfectly legally.
Some halfwit with a drone zips it right onto your flight path.
Do you:-
(a) hit it, and hope that it's within the birdstrike criteria
(b) Start doing your HASELL checks
(c) Use max aileron to roll into a steep turn, apply some extra power, then pull just short of the stall warner to get out of the way.
G